Help the Marine Corps decide on a new caliber for their sniper rifles

[BountyHunter]

Stillers Precision Firearms has been chosen to supply the MK 13 action.
Here is their press announcement.

"Stillers Precision Firearms has been chosen to supply the MK 13 action for the new updated MK 13 sniper rifle in 300 Win Mag for Crane Naval Weapons Center. We submitted samples and won out over the competition in a field type of test using all the submitted actions for consideration. They are putting our action on new AI Chassis systems with new high quality barrels. We are looking forward to dealing with them and becoming a supplier to help our forces do their job. Hopefully, when we complete the first phase of the contract for them this year, we will make the same action available to the general public. We will keep everyone informed of what is available as it happens. "

 

[etisll40]

Ok Jarhead, Nice try.

The fat Lady doesn't shoot guns, she's a singer stupid.

The 338 Allen Magnum is more accurate will shoot longer than anything you've mentioned. 105% better performance.

With the Lapua, 338 RUM, 338Edge, 338-378, 50 calier, barrel life is about the same, poor argument as ammo is the expensive part of the equation not the barrrel. Mass produce barrels by the gov't and swap them out monthly. Not aa big deal at all. you have some gunsmiths there right?????????????????

The Lapua is not the best choice. A big costly ammunition mistake, but that's our government spending our money right.

Get a real gun a 338 am shoot it and then come back and eat your words like a man!

 

[bigngreen]

Ok Jarhead, Nice try.

The fat Lady doesn't shoot guns, she's a singer stupid.

The 338 Allen Magnum is more accurate will shoot longer than anything you've mentioned. 105% better performance.

With the Lapua, 338 RUM, 338Edge, 338-378, 50 calier, barrel life is about the same, poor argument as ammo is the expensive part of the equation not the barrrel. Mass produce barrels by the gov't and swap them out monthly. Not aa big deal at all. you have some gunsmiths there right?????????????????

The Lapua is not the best choice. A big costly ammunition mistake, but that's our government spending our money right.

Get a real gun a 338 am shoot it and then come back and eat your words like a man!

The 338 Lapua was and is the obvious choice, a 338 AM would be fried before even being deployed! At the rate some of these guys are shooting a barrel a month would not cut it and why in all that is good would you want to swap a barrel on a rifle every month on a guy that is defending life and limb!! Then you have the portability issue, a 338 AM does not come in as maneuverable package, besides guys are using the 338 LM basically to the limits of there optics and field conditions so there would not be as great an advantage with a hotter 338.

 

[etisll40]

Sir, a poor argument, were talking similar barrel life.

Swapping a barrel out is a 1-2 hour job while your sleeping once a month or so.

Besides, if you have the accuracy of a 338 am, you don't have to shoot a 1000 rounds a month for a few dozen kills in the field.

Learn to shoot...

Maybe that's an issue.

 

[jcvibby]

If you are looking for a round with those kind of ballistics I would say to go with a 7MM round. The 338's are just too big and a sniper would not need that much disabiling power. A 7WSM or something like that will smoke anything you need at most ranges snipers are capable of making consitant hits on anyway. You can shoot the 180 bergers or something like that and have a great BC bullet. The best thing about this scenario is the rifle could be considerably lighter than a 338 variant.

Go with a 7mm. I dont have one of these but here is what I would do.

7WSM
180 bergers
Stiller Tac 30 Action
Seekins WSM DBM
Rifle Basix Trigger set at 2.5 pounds
Rem sendero contour barrel
some sort of ambidextrious thumbhole stock like a Manner T5.

All this together with a Long Range scope and you should be at 13-14 pounds.

Do it.

 

[bigngreen]

I have never seen the 338 LM and the 338 AM put into the same league as far as barrel life is concerned by anyone who owns them, what kinda life have you been getting with you 338 AM?

I would agree that a Cheytac based 338 would be awesome and is in use with some special forces but the guys I know who are Marines would not want to deploy with an 18 pound rifle shooting ultra custom ammo.

 

[bigngreen]

Learn to shoot...

Maybe that's an issue.

This seems to be just an ignorant statement! So what your saying is that the Marines need to teach their snipers and marksmen to shoot better so they can use a 338 AM. That's just stupid!
All the guys who I personally know who shoot a 338AM or similar chambering also have a trainer rifle, usually in a 338 LM or 338 RUM because they will shoot out the 338AM if they practice much with it too much, Marines shoot more in practice than most of use will shoot in a lifetime.

A 338 AM is not a magical accuracy wand, you gotta put round down range to be able to put anything on target even a 338 AM.

What color was the coolaid?

 

[BountyHunter]

Guys, the military does not care how supposedly great one wildcat is based off the internet ! That just shows a lack of understanding about the military and their needs.

1. If there are not at least two sources for commercial ammo it is not a viable candidate for use Period!

Does not get any simpler than that first of all.

A heavy wildcat with no ammo makes a heavy **** poor club!

2. They will never ever use a round that is on the ragged edge of pressure which is what it takes to hit the high MV claimed for them. Some of us have seen great wildcats lock up with loads that were 10 grains less than the supposed max put out by the smith. That type of pressure curve is not remotely suitable to be a military round in a multitude of military rifles.

If it does not have the two sources for commercial ammo, and it locks up in different guns due to pressure, has trouble feeding from a magazine due to sharp shoulder angles, it will quickly be cut from contention as it should be. Just absolutely stupid to consider anything along those lines as a viable candidate for an across the service sniper system. Now as stated, with SOF that is another story.

3. Any supposed accuracy advantage over other rounds is total BS again. There is nothing inherently accurate about any one of the with super wildcats over, especially with a round designed to fit and work in a mulititude of rifles with factory ammo. Does not exist. I have seen all of them fired, have a couple and shot most of the others. It totally depends on the individual gun, load and trigger puller. Again all items not suitable for a military gun.

However, if you believe that is the case, then the Big Baer has the best documented group recorded with what Joel Russo fired at one mile in competition.

Bottom line is that high pressure wildcats do not make good standard military rounds and will never work.

BH

 

[dirtball]

It would appear the decision has been made, although this article pertains to the Army, I can,t believe that this is not a service wide decision.
Dave


Remington Wins M24E1 Army Sniper Rifle Contract « Daily Bulletin

New 34mm-tube Mark 4 Scope with Horus Reticle for M24E1 « Daily Bulletin

 

[Marine sniper]

Bounty Hunter is 100% correct. The big wildcats are not suitable for a primary sniper rifle. I am split between a 7mm magnum (7-300 Wby, 7mm Ultra, 7MM WSM, etc.) and 338 (Lapua, Lapua improved, Edge, etc). Either the 180 Berger, 200 ULD in the 7mm's or a 300 gr. SMK, VLD, or similar type design in the 338. The 30 Cal Magnums can not be overlooked either, although almost unbelievably there is not a bullet for 30 cal that is as good (for this purpose) as the 180 Bergers, or 300 SMK / 300 Bergers. Something in the 230-240 gr range VLD design and then mated to a 300 Wby, 300 Wby improved, 300-338 Lapua would be excellent. Think winning 1000 yard benchrest......but now we are talking wildcats and they are out of the question.

The light weight, lower muzzle blast of the 7mm's is attractive. I would like to see the Marine Corps build 5-10 of each and let experienced sniper test them and then make a decision. Unfortunatly this is not how it is done. Sometimes it is moneky see, monkey do, or some non sniper makes the decision. As I understand it the Marine Corps is leaning towards a 338 or their own design, or Lapua. Either will be MUCH, MUCH , MUCH better than the .308 we have been crippled with for so long.

 

[Marine sniper]

It would appear the decision has been made, although this article pertains to the Army, I can,t believe that this is not a service wide decision.
Dave


Remington Wins M24E1 Army Sniper Rifle Contract « Daily Bulletin

New 34mm-tube Mark 4 Scope with Horus Reticle for M24E1 « Daily Bulletin

The 300 Winchester is a big step in the right direction. There is no reason for the military to employ a .308 bolt gun. The Marine Corps 20+ pound M40-a3 is a great example of a poorly designed sniper rifle. It is way too heavy for a 308. Semi auto .308's are still viable in urban enviroments.

 

[etisll40]

Thanks Bounty Hunter,

You explained some issues I was unaware of quite well.

Although it's easy to find 2 manufacturers for anything when Military volume is a consideration. Winchester and Remington will do just about anything you ask.

Based on your 2 manufacturer concept, the 300RUM or 338 RUM are probably potential options too. I've heard the Lapua brass is top notch though. Long range of course the 50 caliber is still hard to beat.

Thanks for chiming in?

I'm really proud of our Armed Services and anything that will help them do there job I'd support. The Lapua Magnum is a pretty good choice, no doubt...

Sorry to all for getting a bit chirpy last night. GO USA!

Ed

 

[BountyHunter]

In a perfect world, Ha I would go along these lines

I would opt for a semiauto 308 (for 1-2 squad DMs) and either a bolt 300 Win Mag or standard 338 Lapua for the "sniper".

But then on the other hand, nothing saying the standard service sniper cannot have a 300 Win Mag and 338 Lapua with the Barrret 50 as the "Ma Bell" rifle to "reach out and touch someone"!

Right now if someone said you pick the standard bolt service "sniper" rifle, I would go with the Lapua in the AI chassis. You have got a proven 2k rifle on man size targets with the right conditions and guy behind it.

AI and Hornady teamed up to present their new 285 gr 338 in the AI chassis after Dave Tooley worked with them on chamber and barrel finetuning. Understand it is the gun to beat in the SOCOM comps, but we will see.

When the Brit Para unit spent all that time at quantico, their 338 impressed the Marines quite handily I hear.

BH

 

[Marine sniper]

I agree it would be nice to be able to have multiple rifles availible to snipers. I like the idea of a semi auto 308 in a 20 in barrel version; light, accurate, easily concealable, etc.

I am not a fan of 50's for much more than defensive positions. They are not nearly as accurate as a good medium caliber sniper rifle, they have a tremendous muzzle blast and are heavy and big. If I were tasked with extreme long range shots on people and not equipment (radar dishes, grounded airplanes, etc) I would much prefer a 338. The 408 Cheytac and various .375's are also excellent extreme range rounds.

The 50 was good when we had nothing else, but it is antiquated.

Fwiw, Dave Tooley is building me a 338 Yogi for some extra long range work.