Help the Marine Corps decide on a new caliber for their sniper rifles

[liltank]

First off thank you to the guys that started this. Its good to know good men are always looking for ways to make it easier for the one that follow them to do the hard jobs.
This is just my opinion but its based on a few years of Tactical and Competitive Shooting

First off no one round or one rifle will do everything. Once that is accepted we just have to decide which sytems and calibers are needed

Below is from Military non permissive enviornment not LE permissive.

Urban Work means short range and that means higher rates of fire because of lack of stand off distance. Sniper will have spotter with high rate of fire but always better to have both with weapons capable of rapid fire. This is Urban and and often you will have to move fast so carrying a secondary Assault Weapon will not b always an option. For this the SR25/MK11/M110s (Once all bugs are worked out) or a similar semi auto is the answer and 7.62 is a great choice for caliber. Great Terminal and External Balistics for distances needed, 0-800 yards. Great bbl life, around 10,000 rds. Already in system with all bugs worked out of round.

Rural Work means longer distances of up to 1500 yards. Here you have some stand off distance and a BoltAction can be used, with sniper having a secondary Assauly Weapon for unexpected short range "Oh Craps". Calibers here can be whittled down to several catagories. Smaller Bullets of heavy weight, with high BC and high velocity, Medium Caliber Bullets and the big bullets. Breaking down further, look into what the bullet needs to do at impact.

For two legged kills,any bullet 6.5mm or larger will work. Just remember the bigger the bullet the more recoil and muzzle blast produced.

For equipment knocking out the tougher the bullet, the better they tend to do the hard target work. Here 338 and larger is needed with the 50BMG having the edge. Plus the 50s already have specialty ammo to do lots of damage at impact. Draw back is 50BMG gives your position away first round with blast. Second round follow ups are slow and the systems are very heavy.

For two legged hits at great distance you need to consider blast, bbl life and recoil. Having shot the fast 6.5s I would stay away for military use. Between the 300WM, loaded to 3.6" with 210 or 220s and best 338 Lapua Ammo its a toss up to me. The 338 Has better range potential (addd about 200 yards over the best 300WM) but recoil is far worse. Both when fired as sniper weapons (Slow fire) have good bbl life (If rapid fired you can toast either bbl in a 1000 rds)

Hope this helps.

+1 I agree with your assessments. Even though the 30's have been around for a while, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Tank care and keep your head down!

Tank (C 4/1 FA)

 

[FEENIX]

+1 I agree with your assessments. Even though the 30's have been around for a while, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Tank care and keep your head down!

Tank (C 4/1 FA)

Sorry but as continuous process improvement practitioner, I have to respectfully disagree to the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. I hear it a lot in my line of work. Remember the Sony Walkman (late 1970s?) , it was a hit when it first came out and there's nothing wrong with it, yet every year they come up with improvements.

Walkman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like many of the LRH members that reloads, they never stopped in just one known good load development. Where I work, we have some very big guns ... ICBMs . The Minuteman-III was first deployed in 1969 and with the latest upgrades is expected to remain in service through the year 2025 ... with more plans to extend to 2040.

We need to respond to the ever changing demands of our times and environment ... whatever the case maybe. Before the Gulf War 1, the US has been preparing a battlefield/scenario in the European theater for many years. That same European trained/prepped forces (I included) was sent to the Saudi deserts (woodland BDUs is not as effective in the desert ). There was a lot of rapid prototyping and wartime crisis planning adjustments to respond to the challenge at hand. Luckily, we have brilliant military leaders at the time and was afforded to do what they do best - win battles decisively.

God bless our TROOPS!

Sorry I got side tracked but just wanted to get that off my chest ... now back to the thread

 

[liltank]

Feenix,

I agree with you on the necessity of redesign for clothing. In fact the the calibers that we are talking about have also evolved. The M40A1 is no longer a 308 on a typical style stock. It is now on an A5 stock with all the bells and whistles. The 300 WM is has conformed in the same way. They no longer use an Unertl style optic, but have moved to FFP style with elevation, side focus and windage adjustments all on the same system.

Caliber has remained the same due to availability, but powders have changed, bullets have changed, and primers have changed. No longer are the days of IMR 4064, but now RL15 is the preferred load. Not sure what the powders are for the big magnums, but they have been improved.

They did develop and use the 338 Lapua for longer harder hitting capacities. So there has been change, but the "if ain't broke don't fix it," comes with the caliber selection. As stated by the poster before myself, he stated that no one system would work. His explination of the usage the current caliber is specific to its application.

As far as the "Minuteman III," it would be foolish not to update to todays technology. To try and maintain an ICBM program with 1969 technology is limiting our abilities to be accurate. Like anything else (Camo, vests, camelbacks, computer, rifle systems) and the current calibers that are being used, upgrades have been made to maintain its capabilities in changing times. Just sometimes Old Faithful is .... well... Old Faithful!!

 

[FEENIX]

liltank,

Point well taken ... but here's the reality in the decision phases ...

When faced with a 20-year threat, the ​

government responds with a 15-year plan, ​

in a 6-year defense program, managed by ​

3-year personnel, attempting to develop a ​

2-year budget, which in reality is funded​

by a 1-year appropriation (which is ​

typically 1 to 6 months late), actually ​

formulated over a 3-day weekend and ​

approved in a 1-hour decision briefing


​

 

[liltank]

liltank,

Point well taken ... but here's the reality in the decision phases ...

When faced with a 20-year threat, the ​

government responds with a 15-year plan, ​

in a 6-year defense program, managed by ​

3-year personnel, attempting to develop a ​

2-year budget, which in reality is funded​

by a 1-year appropriation (which is ​

typically 1 to 6 months late), actually ​

formulated over a 3-day weekend and ​

approved in a 1-hour decision briefing


​

Sweet Gotta love politics.

 

[silvertip-co]

...the gubbamint now has 27 diff calibres and types of sniper rifles, one for everyone. Thats all fine and good til we go to war and find out the only domestic ammo we can get is for the M40A1 Rem 700 varmint rifles they built for Vietnam. Hello Lake City Arsenal...

 

[D.A.T.]

What US feds are using 7mm Rem mags??
I've trained with alot of them and have never seen a 7mmRem.

last ones i werked with had the 300wm.and it worked dang good,ask the camel jockys.oh wait......they cant talk

 

[orkan]

My vote would be for the 300WM. Affordable, and powerful.

My main modification would be platform. A 26" barrel on a traditional bolt rifle with a suppressor hanging off the end is a VERY long and cumbersome package.

Enter the DTA SRS.

I'll be buying one as soon as funds allow, in 300WM

 

[Chas1]

First thoughts that come to mind would be commercially available and battle tested while meeting your objectives. Only one comes to mind 338 Lapua.

 

[RMulhern]

Offering 'input' on this is about as useless as tits on a boar hog!! When we have idiots that gave us the 5.56MM as a Service Cartridge in conjunction with the *** known as the M16....why would anyone think that the powers that be would listen to voices from the civilian sector??

 

[liltank]

Offering 'input' on this is about as useless as tits on a boar hog!! When we have idiots that gave us the 5.56MM as a Service Cartridge in conjunction with the *** known as the M16....why would anyone think that the powers that be would listen to voices from the civilian sector??

You mean that my vote doesn't count????? Pretty sure I didn't leave a dangling chad. Oh wait... it was computerized voting where it is to be secure and unable to break down or lose votes!

Tank

 

[94Winchester]

Why not 30-06 AI? From some of the ballistics tables I have been reading it will match .300 win mag and in the unlikely event that the US is invaded, the USMC snipers would be able to find regular 30-06 from almost any gun store in the country. They would be able to resupply while out in the field if they needed to.

 

[Budss101]

I have shot many rounds at 1000yds, M1A1s, these are great rifles with good results, with the long range shots and open areas with mountains and wind I would have to go with a 338, right now the 338 lapua has more availability. All of the 338s with 1-10 twist and 28-32 inch barrels, good optics should fit the bill. The Barret 98 Bravo with the BORS system is on the shelf and ready to rock in roll.

 

[SamLS]

Develop a new load for the 308 first. Better powder and bullets are available than what your using know.

Second get the AI 338 AX