6.5 PRC

[BrentM]

I agree. … but I don't agree that applies to 7mm.

A 6.5 PRC/Saum/Sherman is plenty capable based on both terminal and external ballistics. The reality is that 99% of the hunters are not capable. If a person is in the 1% then good for them. I highly doubt I'll ever tag an elk at 1000 at any rate, not a 1%'er. The 6.5 is fairly light for that range regardless, I agree with that. I think the issue with the 7, I have a couple, is that a guy really needs to be in the heavies and most don't buy a rifle with a fast twist barrel. They wind up with a 140-160 class bullet and dismiss the science. Those running 180-190 class know that a 7 is pretty sweet. It's definitely one of my fav's.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I agree. … but I don't agree that applies to 7mm.

The 195 is a pretty good bullet and its shoots. I jumped on them like everyone else when they came out. After the first elk season here I started getting a lot of reports. They just did not turn out to be the killing bullet we hoped. Some had success but far too many failures and we abandoned them for hunting. Pencils holes, blow ups, they were just too erratic. But I have come to the conclusion that is a lot to lot thing as well as a barrel thing. If your lot is good and your barrel is treating the jacket right and they work then your good, just dont shoot up that lot of bullets plinking, find a different lot for that. But overall they just didnt work like other Bergers. The 168 vld and 180 vld work very well but in the wind at 1k you have to be pretty good at wind reading. The other thing for me is bigger 7s burn out the throat so fast they can be a pain to keep in tune. I tune my stuff often and even I get tired of it. Big jumps can widen the window some but a 28 nosler sized case moves the throat about .001 per 10 shots. And guys need to be shooting a lot if they really do intend to try a shot on a living animal at those ranges. So thats also something that plays into my thoughts. A 7 saum sized case with a 180 is awesome, bigger than that and they do start to become more touchy. For some reason as you go up in bore size you can get more overbore without getting as finicky. A 300 NMI is pretty tame vs a 28 Nosler, and a 338 Lapua improved is almost like a 6br its so easy to deal with. So Im looking at the whole picture when it comes to making that shot.

 

[orkan]

7 Norma mag improved doesn't have much trouble staying in node. 28 nosler is waaaay worse. 180 hybrids and 195's have worked extremely well for me. I do agree on the pencils though. The 195's benefit greatly from meplat trimming. 180 hybrids don't care about anything... they kill everything they touch.

A 6.5 PRC/Saum/Sherman is plenty capable based on both terminal and external ballistics. The reality is that 99% of the hunters are not capable. If a person is in the 1% then good for them. I highly doubt I'll ever tag an elk at 1000 at any rate, not a 1%'er. The 6.5 is fairly light for that range regardless, I agree with that. I think the issue with the 7, I have a couple, is that a guy really needs to be in the heavies and most don't buy a rifle with a fast twist barrel. They wind up with a 140-160 class bullet and dismiss the science. Those running 180-190 class know that a 7 is pretty sweet. It's definitely one of my fav's.

What really settled all of this in my mind is when shooting at extended ranges. When working out to 2000yds, the 6.5's of basically every variety really struggle past 1100. At about 1300, they just stop working at all. 7mm's with vast majority of cartridges and bullets will run stable to 2000 without issue. Even my 6.5LRM struggles past 1100. That's something I've realized across many years and countless sessions working beyond 1000. The right 7mm is good. The 30's do great, and 375's rule as you push past 1700.

 

[BrentM]

7 Norma mag improved doesn't have much trouble staying in node. 28 nosler is waaaay worse. 180 hybrids and 195's have worked extremely well for me. I do agree on the pencils though. The 195's benefit greatly from meplat trimming. 180 hybrids don't care about anything... they kill everything they touch.


What really settled all of this in my mind is when shooting at extended ranges. When working out to 2000yds, the 6.5's of basically every variety really struggle past 1100. At about 1300, they just stop working at all. 7mm's with vast majority of cartridges and bullets will run stable to 2000 without issue. Even my 6.5LRM struggles past 1100. That's something I've realized across many years and countless sessions working beyond 1000. The right 7mm is good. The 30's do great, and 375's rule as you push past 1700.

Interesting. Never experienced a 6.5 not working at those ranges but that is a poke for sure. Heck I've shot a pile of matches with ranges out to 1760. Most are 1400 and less. I shot a lot of those with a 6mm. For things like the vortex challenge and long range practical matches I used a 6.5-284 since the rate of fire is low with a generous time of 4 minutes. Never seen any issue with the caliber per se but it's a well know thought process that is large caliber with very high BC territory. At any rate, the OP and the discussion has been about shooting to 1k and nothing being discussed about ELR which is exponentially more challenging. Even with large calibers and extremely high bc the hit percentage is ridiculously low and just a prayer with a 6.5. Then again we have people shooting 1k with a 22 long rifle these days. Doh

 

[WildRose]

I agree. … but I don't agree that applies to 7mm.

I'd say that's highly dependent on the case size. There's some 7mm's I would certainly not trust at that distance on large game.

Got to have enough horsepower behind any bullet of any size at any range to get good penetration and expansion.

 

[orkan]

I'd say that's highly dependent on the case size. There's some 7mm's I would certainly not trust at that distance on large game.

Got to have enough horsepower behind any bullet of any size at any range to get good penetration and expansion.

Ok, if we're to be didactic… I guess I'll see myself out.

I didn't think it needed said that a 338 whisper isn't a 1000yd elk cartridge. I mean… it's a 338 right?

 

[wasskeet]

We see this all the time and have for years. I also score the 1k BR targets at the deep creek matches. I will get 8 targets shot in the same conditions and many times you will see a tiny group with strung out groups on both sides of him. Most BR shooters in this game will shoot when the commence fire is given and will run the group as quick as possible. Your never going to see what I am talking about unless your in an environment where thats happening. Multiple bullets fired at the same time and on paper targets from well tuned rifles.
Probably have gotten far enough off topic and I do not expect anyone to believe this, nor do I care.

I have only been to a few matches starting last year, but I have seen this. IMHO, even more frustrating is to see three good shooters (two with 6's and one 6.5 of some form) get in a shoot-off with a storm coming in and out of 15 shots - only one fellow put one shot on paper.

 

[BrentM]

Ok, if we're to be didactic… I guess I'll see myself out.

I didn't think it needed said that a 338 whisper isn't a 1000yd elk cartridge. I mean… it's a 338 right?

I think its the same road I was traveling earlier where a person needs to quantify the cartridge since some people tend to use watermelon vs grape comparisons. For example a 308 win or a 7-08 vs a 6.5 PRC. They'll make a blanket statement it has to be 7/30cal min but completely ignore ballistics in favor of opinion.

 

[BrentM]

I have only been to a few matches starting last year, but I have seen this. IMHO, even more frustrating is to see three good shooters (two with 6's and one 6.5 of some form) get in a shoot-off with a storm coming in and out of 15 shots - only one fellow put one shot on paper.

Yeah and those same people will struggle with any caliber using a similar bc and fps set up in unstable and highly variable wind. Spend a bunch of time studying the records and results on the official benchrest page and you'll see that both lg and hg are fairly close overall and not one caliber absolutely dominates the matches. They are not showing a light caliber to have 3x the dispersion of heavy for example. It has never been that way and if it was, there be zero shooters choosing a 6.5 or 7mm. Those shooters would never be able to compete. So is a world record of 2.6" better than 3" etc, yep. Is that proving a 6.5 is not accurate in the same conditions etc. Not in the least. According to the BR world, at any given day, the winner could be any one. This article spells it out pretty well in my opinion and supports what seems to happen at those matches where LG and HG compete head to head.

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[WildRose]

Ok, if we're to be didactic… I guess I'll see myself out.

I didn't think it needed said that a 338 whisper isn't a 1000yd elk cartridge. I mean… it's a 338 right?

It didn't. That wasn't even a question.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Yeah and those same people will struggle with any caliber using a similar bc and fps set up in unstable and highly variable wind. Spend a bunch of time studying the records and results on the official benchrest page and you'll see that both lg and hg are fairly close overall and not one caliber absolutely dominates the matches. They are not showing a light caliber to have 3x the dispersion of heavy for example. It has never been that way and if it was, there be zero shooters choosing a 6.5 or 7mm. Those shooters would never be able to compete. So is a world record of 2.6" better than 3" etc, yep. Is that proving a 6.5 is not accurate in the same conditions etc. Not in the least. According to the BR world, at any given day, the winner could be any one. This article spells it out pretty well in my opinion and supports what seems to happen at those matches where LG and HG compete head to head.

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That article is pretty out dated. You wont see many 6.5s or 7mms in LR BR. A few but not many. The 6mm dominates LR BR. Out of the 20 different IBS 1k BR records 18 are with a 6mm, the other 2 are with a 30. When its decent you cant beat a 6mm. When the wind picks up the larger bores will start to get more competitive. So you will see more 6.5s-30s at windier ranges. The reasons for that dont apply to us in the LR hunting world though.

 

[BrentM]

That article is pretty out dated. You wont see many 6.5s or 7mms in LR BR. A few but not many. The 6mm dominates LR BR. Out of the 20 different IBS 1k BR records 18 are with a 6mm, the other 2 are with a 30. When its decent you cant beat a 6mm. When the wind picks up the larger bores will start to get more competitive. So you will see more 6.5s-30s at windier ranges. The reasons for that dont apply to us in the LR hunting world though.

Seems nothing has changed. Fast light bullets with high bc are accurate. Maybe slightly less so in windier environments but they are competitive none the less. If people are trying to hunt in extremely volatile winds with poor reads they shouldn't sending rounds at all. At some point people have to have control over whether they squeeze the trigger or not. While wolf hunting this weekend I was shooting 1000-1700 at different ops to test my wind calls. This is just normal behavior for me but I don't know if others do this. I know when I've guided long range hunters they sure don't. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out their max effective range and it's usually not long range.