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338 or 375 EnABELR or alternative cartridge for ELR hunting

Tragik

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
83
Location
Colorado
Looking to do a custom build in either 338 or 375 which I plan on using 90% for hunting (likely off a tripod) and 10% for casually shooting steel at 1,500+ yards. Will be hunting a bit of elk but mainly brown bears, POW Island black bears (which tend to be big for black bears), and moose. It's the brown bear hunting every 4 or 5 years that's my main motivation, but it's also just an excuse to build an ELR rifle. However, I do not ever plan on doing ELR competitions with this gun. If anything, I would do PRS competitions with either my 6mm or 7mm builds.

I already have a rem 700 375 H&H for hunts where I need a light rifle and plan on taking a close shot. This new build will be what I would consider to be very extremely heaving for hunting purposes (both for increased accuracy and to soak up recoil) and I'm fine with that. I anticipate using it on hunts where I'll be hiking less strenuously / shooting from much further away than I would with my 375 H&H. I'm assuming it will weigh somewhere in the 12-15 lb. range, excluding the scope.

With all that said, I'll be going with a very heavy recoil caliber. I've never shot the 338 Norma / Norma Imp but I love the idea of each. I was very close to going with the 338 Norma, but after thinking about it I want a higher muzzle velocity for 300 gr bullets if I go with a 338. I really like the idea of the 338 EnABELR or even the 375 EnABELR, and while I'm not recoil sensitive, both seem like way overkill (and I'm not aware of ELR 375 bullets for hunting). I mentioned this would be a heavy build but I have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to rifle weight!

Any suggestions on something between the 338 Norma / Norma Imp (i'm assuming 2,700 fps MV with a 300 gr) and the 338 EnABELR (which claims 3,200 fps MV with a 300 gr)? 3,000 fps MV with a 300 gr is my goal. Is this just a matter of going with a light load with the EnABELR? Is anyone aware of an improved version of the 338 EnABELR to reduce case capacity / recoil / MV?

If anyone knows of a hunting bullet with a similar G7 to the Berger 379 gr or 407 gr, then I would gladly go with a 375 over a 338, assuming I can reduce the capacity / recoil of the 375 EnABELR. For reference, Applied Ballistics claims 2,900 fps MV for the 379 gr and 2,800 fps for the 407 gr. My goal would be to reduce case capacity / recoil resulting in a 100-200 fps MV reduction.

Lastly, I'm aware of the Cheytac but would prefer the EnABELR for a 338 or 375 if that's the only other alternative to get the desired MV unless there's something I'm not aware of that makes the Cheytac a far better option.
 
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Cutting Edge Lazers are expanding bullets, The A-tips have also proved to work well for hunting. Badlands has their SBD II, IIRC Hammer has an option also but BC isn't there. Maybe if a guy contacted them they'd make something sleeker.

Do you have a barrel length restriction? 338 Edge with a 32" barrel get you about 3k with a 300gr.
These guys running 375 RUM with 390gr A-tips up to about 2850

I had a custom reamer and dies made for a 375 RUM Gibbs. That I am hoping to get 2900 or better from the 390 Gr A-tips but it'll be a dedicated ELR rifle. I have the barrel ready to go on but I am waiting until after Nightforce ELR to play with it.

33XC or 37XC also be good options on a Lapua Bolt face.

I also think a 338 Sherman Mag should be able to get really close to 3k with a 32" barrel.

338/375 EnABELR are both good options just thought I'd throw some other options for you to research since you asked.
 
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Personally I think in very simple terms. Pick the bullet you want, find the case that drives the bullet to the speed you desire, then build a rifle around that. Obviously the faster you drive it, the further you can effectively shoot. So I would assess your recoil and financial tolerance and pick the right tool for the job. I think the 338 flavor traveling 2900-3100 fps is a very happy place all things considered. A lapua AI, terminator, XC, EnAbler, Sherman could all fit this bill.
 
338 Edge with a 32" barrel get you about 3k with a 300gr.
X2. If you have/want a magnum bolt face go 338 Edge.

My opinion is if you have/want a Lapua bolt face than 338 LMI over 338 NMI, but both work. My bias is because I have the Redding dies for 338 Lapua Imp and use them for a 30cal wildcat also.

My light-class ELR 338 Edge is a 32" barrel. A standard 338 Lapua will be about 200 FPS slow, so put a 32-36" barrel on it and use an improved reamer and you'll be there. Redding makes 338 Lapua Improved 40* dies, and Shawn Carlock has 338 Edge Redding dies.

Or hit the easy button, call Kirby Allen, and talk to him about the 338 or 375 Allen Express and one of his rifles. That's the 375 route I would go, instead of one of the ELR cases.
 
It is always tricky to make the decisions you are contemplating when there are real world weight restrictions.
I have two rifles that would fit your built ideas, a 338 LAI and a 375 LAI. The 338 is 11 lbs. with scope and bipod, the 375 is one lbs. heavier. The 338 is a sub .5 MOA rifle with 250 CE Lazers at 2925 fps. I have not worked with the 375 much, but I throated it to maximize velocity with the 350 Lazer, should end up at a little over 2900 fps.

There is also the ethical question of how far you should at game animals combined with enough reliable killing power if the shot is not right through the vitals. That said, you do not need a "hotrod" to kill an elk at 800-1000 yards.

Since you seem to be vacillating between the 338 Norma and 338 Enabler; for your started desired goals I would go with the Norma. It has plenty of killing power and can be built in a lighter / shorter barrel platform with a higher degree of potential accuracy (due primarily to weight) than the Enabler.
 
Thank you all for your feedback! As far as ethical shots, I'll be shooting off a tripod and I don't plan to shoot game beyond 1K yards, and even then, I would only shoot that far if there is minimal wind. Elk, moose, and black bear will all be on the menu but brown bear is the main motivation for this rifle. It would be great to have enough energy to take a large coastal brown bear at 500 yards. I love everything I've read about the 338 Norma but I prefer to have more velocity. I also don't feel like going through the fireforming process with 100 rounds of brass to make 338 Norma Imp or 338 Lapua Imp.

After looking into the 338 Terminator, I'm loving that it's about 3,000 fps with 300 gr bullets. Does Defensive Edge make good brass?
 
I'm pretty sure you can buy brass from Shawn, but if I'm remembering correctly it's once-fired-fire-formed in a forming barrel so you'll still need to shoot the cases once through in your chamber to fully form. Just the nature of the beast with wildcats.
 
Call Shawn at DE. He will get you setup. Yes they have brass. The terminator and 338 LMAI is essentially the same thing. The difference is DE has somewhat streamlined the process. Basically you have two directions here:

338 LMAI: have someone spin up a 338 LMAI barrel. fireform your own brass, send the brass along with a reamer print to a die maker such as whidden. You can use any brass, but when I went this route I went with lapua.

338 Terminator: call Shawn and give him your money. Let him be your one stop shop. Likely this will be more expensive but pretty simple.

Either route will likely serve you well. I don't think you will go wrong either way as long as you use a reputable smith.
 
338 LMAI: have someone spin up a 338 LMAI barrel. fireform your own brass, send the brass along with a reamer print to a die maker such as whidden
No need, Redding makes four different 40* LMAI sizing dies. Email the reamer print to Redding and they'll give you the Die number to order, then call Accurate Arms and they'll get it ordered from Redding for you since you can't order direct.
 
Remember that the velocity numbers will be affected by the location based upon the altitude.
Also remember that the larger cases will require large diameter custom dies and a larger loading press to handle them.
378 Wetherby cases can be loaded on a standard size press.
A 338x378 will send a 300 gr bullet to a velocity of 2950 or more in elevations of 1000 ft above sea level.
A standard 416 Rigby case will send the same bullet a bit faster, and the improved version faster yet, again with standard loading tools.
My 338 Big Baer with a 34" barrel will send a 300 gr bullet 250 fps faster than my sons 338x378 with a 30" barrel.
But i use 30 more grains of powder in order to do it.
Plus higher brass cost and a whole nuther loading outfit to load.
You know what? its not worth it, if i had my time to do over i would have used the improved 416 case or the 378 Wetherby case.
Thing is you have to try them all at the same place on the same day, and we have with the 338 Edge, the standard 338 Lapua, the standard 338x378, and the 338 Big Baer, all with 300 gr bullets.
 
@yobuck altitude does not affect MV. Temperature does.
However Density Altitude will affect the drag on the bullet. Higher DA = thinner air which in turn is less drop at distance due to more retained velocity.
 
@yobuck altitude does not affect MV. Temperature does.
However Density Altitude will affect the drag on the bullet. Higher DA = thinner air which in turn is less drop at distance due to more retained velocity.
You are correct, muzzel velocity in and of itself isnt affected.
The end result however is the same.
Point is that we can all sit around and compare statistics and opinions.
Go someplace and actually shoot them and opinions will often change.
Powder capacity is the answer for performance, but it isnt always necessarily the right answer for everybody.
 
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