338 enabelr

[Coercionist]

After researching cheytac sized rifles for a while now, Ive come to the conclusion the to fit my wants and needs a big 338 will be required. In my eyes there are three to choose from, arranged by case capacity: the 33xc, 338 enabler, and then the 338 cheytac/snipetac/allen mag. My velocity goals are as follow: if/when the bullet manufacturer companies finally come out with a 320-330gr .338 bullet, then I want it moving at around 3150-3200 fps. I feel this goal is a bit too much for the XC, and I'm certain the big cheytac based cases can do it but I want to try to minimize throat erosion as much as I can. This leads me to the enabelr, I feel as if the 375 enabelr is a little lacking in the case capacity department when trying to shoot the 409gr solids it is intended for; but then again I constantly see this same type of talk when referring to the 338 Norma and 300gr bullets, although slower than the lapua, the norma had shown to be an extremely inherently accurate cartridge. Similar once again the the Norma, given its caliber the enabelrs caliber to capacity ratio it is begging to be slightly necked down to .338 in order to emulate the 300 norma. For a rifle of this caliber I plan to use 35-36" barrels rather than the 30" test barrel to maximize velocity in order to not have to push the brass too hard. I cannot find data on the 338 enabelr so I have tried to estimate by comparing it to the xc cartridge. According to applied ballistics they have achieved 2990 fps with a 379gr and 30" and the 37xc can do, according to Tubb himself, a 361gr at 3050 with a 33" barrel. If you add 75 fps from the old estimate of 25 fps per inch then the enabelr will be going slightly faster with the same barrel length AND an almost 20gr heavier bullet. If you continue to add length to 35" there is an estimated velocity of 3115 fps with the 379gr solid, giving a 65 fps velocity gain with a heavier bullet. Given these estimation, I find it hard to believe that with a long barrel ~35" that a 330gr bullet couldn't be propelled at 3200 fps because the XC almost meets my goals since a good bit of the users can get a Berger hybrid around 3200 fps and the parent (375 enabelr) whilst accounting for test barrel length and bullet weight noticeably outperforms the 37 XC.

I understand earlier that the enabler cartridges had issues with brass tolerances and reamers, or something of that sort. However according to an employee at AB this issue has been solved and the brass will now be of proper spec.

Does my goal seem too unreasonable or do you think there is another chambering better suited for my needs? Im thinking something similar to a enabelr improved to 35* would be interesting.

 

[yobuck]

You should talk with Bruce Baer, 717 349 4077.
He has been working with 35 cal for a few years now on his Big Baer case. I believe Cutting Edge is making bullets for him.
Im getting 3250 from that case in 338 with 300 gr SMKs and a 34" barrel. Apparently some are claiming more with a bit more powder. But up to 3 more grains didnt show much difference for me. I dont think you will see the velocity increases you think by going with a longer barrel.
Bruce feels barrels over 30" are pretty much unnecessary on the larger cartridges.
Fact is that Sierra made a 320 gr 338 before they decided on the 300 gr. I still have about a box of them and there are some who have alot more than that.

 

[Taylorbok]

With that length of barrel any of your choices should do. I'd personally vote for a 375 bullet going a bit slower, the splash off a 375 vs 338 is a noticeable advantage, the little bit faster 338 isn't gaining you much

 

[yobuck]

With that length of barrel any of your choices should do. I'd personally vote for a 375 bullet going a bit slower, the splash off a 375 vs 338 is a noticeable advantage, the little bit faster 338 isn't gaining you much

Well if you sit behind them watching thru good tripod mounted glasses, you would see the difference easily between the 2900 fps 338 and the 3250 fps 338s. at the longer distances
I mean the same argument could be made between a 300 win mag and a 30x378?
Again, go watch them fly.

 

[Taylorbok]

Well if you sit behind them watching thru good tripod mounted glasses, you would see the difference easily between the 2900 fps 338 and the 3250 fps 338s. at the longer distances
I mean the same argument could be made between a 300 win mag and a 30x378?
Again, go watch them fly.

When running the same bullet added velocity will gain you a bit of splash but that wasn't my point.
My point was a 375 cal going 3000 ish is going to out splash a 338 at 3200, especially when it really matters. Where I shoot the ground doesn't provide great feedback.

The 338 going a bit faster will buck the wind a bit better and provide a bit less elevation to about 2500 yards depending on velocities, after that a 375 will take over, the 375 bullet will provide better splash at all distances.

 

[yobuck]

When running the same bullet added velocity will gain you a bit of splash but that wasn't my point.
My point was a 375 cal going 3000 ish is going to out splash a 338 at 3200, especially when it really matters. Where I shoot the ground doesn't provide great feedback.

The 338 going a bit faster will buck the wind a bit better and provide a bit less elevation to about 2500 yards depending on velocities, after that a 375 will take over, the 375 bullet will provide better splash at all distances.

Well as youve stated, the amount of splash has much to do with where the bullet is landing. With a good target area all of them are easier to see when they impact.
But more important is getting it there accuratly to begin with, and thats where velocity coupled with the heavier bullets come into play.

 

[Taylorbok]

Well as youve stated, the amount of splash has much to do with where the bullet is landing. With a good target area all of them are easier to see when they impact.
But more important is getting it there accuratly to begin with, and thats where velocity coupled with the heavier bullets come into play.

Not everyone can be blessed with moon dust.
Typically if we are talking in the proper realm of bullets a 375 will be heavier and have higher BC but going a bit slower which is the reason it takes a longer distance for it to out perform the 338. Splash of 375 still greater at any distance

 

[yobuck]

Not everyone can be blessed with moon dust.
Typically if we are talking in the proper realm of bullets a 375 will be heavier and have higher BC but going a bit slower which is the reason it takes a longer distance for it to out perform the 338. Splash of 375 still greater at any distance

Well hunters are never blessed with moon dust are they?
Even snow can become too much of a good thing as for seeing hits. You are correct in that larger bullets will make a bigger splash.

 

[Fiftydriver]

This debate has been going on for a long time now. In my opinion, if your looking for a competition round in 338 caliber, your best to limit your capacity to the size of my 338 Raptor or the slightly smaller capacity 33 xc. The reason is mainly barrel life consideration. If your wanting only a dedicated long or extreme range big game hunting system, the. Stepping up to the larger cheytac class 338s such as my 338 Allen Mag and similar rounds makes much more sense because of the somewhat limited shooting volume associated with this type of use.

for comp, if you want to step up ballistically, it is wise to step up in caliber which will also offer increased throat life. For example, my 375 Allen Mag has even better predicted throat life as my 338 Raptor, and around 30% longer throat life then my 338 Allen Mag.

aside from barrel life and ballistics for consideration, felt recoil may also be something of interest, in a standard weight rifle in these class of rounds, the 338 Raptor/33xc with quality muzzle brakes will be extremely comfortable to shoot. Stepping up to the chey tac class case in 338 will produce more felt recoil but still extremely comfortable. Most are simply amazed how easy shooting my XHS rifles in 338 AM are. Stepping up to the 375 cal with the better and best long range projo weights simply add more recoil. Again, not severe by any means but enough that you really do notice it after a good shooting session compared to the smaller 338. It is for this reason i generally prefer 375 cal weights in the 375-400 gr but not heavier.

 

[Coercionist]

This debate has been going on for a long time now. In my opinion, if your looking for a competition round in 338 caliber, your best to limit your capacity to the size of my 338 Raptor or the slightly smaller capacity 33 xc. The reason is mainly barrel life consideration. If your wanting only a dedicated long or extreme range big game hunting system, the. Stepping up to the larger cheytac class 338s such as my 338 Allen Mag and similar rounds makes much more sense because of the somewhat limited shooting volume associated with this type of use.

for comp, if you want to step up ballistically, it is wise to step up in caliber which will also offer increased throat life. For example, my 375 Allen Mag has even better predicted throat life as my 338 Raptor, and around 30% longer throat life then my 338 Allen Mag.

aside from barrel life and ballistics for consideration, felt recoil may also be something of interest, in a standard weight rifle in these class of rounds, the 338 Raptor/33xc with quality muzzle brakes will be extremely comfortable to shoot. Stepping up to the chey tac class case in 338 will produce more felt recoil but still extremely comfortable. Most are simply amazed how easy shooting my XHS rifles in 338 AM are. Stepping up to the 375 cal with the better and best long range projo weights simply add more recoil. Again, not severe by any means but enough that you really do notice it after a good shooting session compared to the smaller 338. It is for this reason i generally prefer 375 cal weights in the 375-400 gr but not heavier.

Mr. Allen, since my initial posting, I have basically came to the same consensus as you, the 33XC looked to be the optimum choice if any sort of major precision during competition roles is asked of the rifle. I have seen a posting of yours about two years ago concerning your new sort of re-issue of the raptor cartridges, and it was mostly focused on the 300 raptor and you found with the new Peterson XC brass you could achieve and even exceed your original goals for the raptor years ago. I saw that you could achieve 3300 ft./s with a 245 grain berger out of a 30 inch barrel, although impressive this is extremely intensive on the barrel therefore for my purposes I feel it would be too short of a barrel life (awesome for a light elk hammer though). I am wondering on your results for the 338 raptor with the new brass. I expect slightly higher velocities than the XC however, I'm not sure by how much. For the project I want to put this on, it is going to be a Pierce 10x action (to handle pressure better and to be able to swap barrel and bolt to a .375 cheytac improved variant) so with the added capacity over the X C, and the larger action I should be able to push the cartridge to its limits without eating up the barrel as fast as a Cheytac. With the beefier action a longer barrel (~34") what sort of velocities do you think would be achievable with a 300 grain projectile out of your raptor?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Mr. Allen, since my initial posting, I have basically came to the same consensus as you, the 33XC looked to be the optimum choice if any sort of major precision during competition roles is asked of the rifle. I have seen a posting of yours about two years ago concerning your new sort of re-issue of the raptor cartridges, and it was mostly focused on the 300 raptor and you found with the new Peterson XC brass you could achieve and even exceed your original goals for the raptor years ago. I saw that you could achieve 3300 ft./s with a 245 grain berger out of a 30 inch barrel, although impressive this is extremely intensive on the barrel therefore for my purposes I feel it would be too short of a barrel life (awesome for a light elk hammer though). I am wondering on your results for the 338 raptor with the new brass. I expect slightly higher velocities than the XC however, I'm not sure by how much. For the project I want to put this on, it is going to be a Pierce 10x action (to handle pressure better and to be able to swap barrel and bolt to a .375 cheytac improved variant) so with the added capacity over the X C, and the larger action I should be able to push the cartridge to its limits without eating up the barrel as fast as a Cheytac. With the beefier action a longer barrel (~34") what sort of velocities do you think would be achievable with a 300 grain projectile out of your raptor?

This is interesting, i developed my Raptor as a unique case design, basically my 338 Allen Xpress (lapua based) stretched to the length of the cheytac case to offer the ultimate in performance and capacity out of my Raptor LRSS rifles. It did this quite well. In a 30" barrel length we saw 3150 fps average with the 300 gr bergers using the original bertram brass.

then there was a differing of opinion on what the agreement was for this brass and i basically got screwed on the deal. And without my permission bertram started selling my brass to the public.

David Tubbs gets a supply of my 338 Raptor brass from bertram, designs his 33 xc off from it, calls up peterson brass to make his brass and outs the screws to bertram which i have no problem with.

i take the 33xc, relocate the shoulder slightly to get back to my original Raptor neck length which offers even more capacity over my original design and the peterson brass is vastly superior to bertram in every way so win win…..

we are seeing 3150-3200 fps now but with dramatically increased case life. In a 34" barrel i would expect to see 3200 fps minimum. The 300 Raptor in a 34" barrel will drive a 245 gr berger to legit 3400 fps velocities.

for comp use, you are probably correct in that the standard XC would be more long lived, however, my 338 AX would be even more so by a significant margin and in a 30" barrel will run between 3000 and 3050 fps easily with the 300 grain. XC should be in the 3075-3100 fps range and my Raptor in the 3150-3200 fps range on average with 300 grain bullets.

 

[Coercionist]

This is interesting, i developed my Raptor as a unique case design, basically my 338 Allen Xpress (lapua based) stretched to the length of the cheytac case to offer the ultimate in performance and capacity out of my Raptor LRSS rifles. It did this quite well. In a 30" barrel length we saw 3150 fps average with the 300 gr bergers using the original bertram brass.

then there was a differing of opinion on what the agreement was for this brass and i basically got screwed on the deal. And without my permission bertram started selling my brass to the public.

David Tubbs gets a supply of my 338 Raptor brass from bertram, designs his 33 xc off from it, calls up peterson brass to make his brass and outs the screws to bertram which i have no problem with.

i take the 33xc, relocate the shoulder slightly to get back to my original Raptor neck length which offers even more capacity over my original design and the peterson brass is vastly superior to bertram in every way so win win…..

we are seeing 3150-3200 fps now but with dramatically increased case life. In a 34" barrel i would expect to see 3200 fps minimum. The 300 Raptor in a 34" barrel will drive a 245 gr berger to legit 3400 fps velocities.

for comp use, you are probably correct in that the standard XC would be more long lived, however, my 338 AX would be even more so by a significant margin and in a 30" barrel will run between 3000 and 3050 fps easily with the 300 grain. XC should be in the 3075-3100 fps range and my Raptor in the 3150-3200 fps range on average with 300 grain bullets.

Sorry for the revival, but have there been any further testing with the raptor cartridge line using the XC brass? I am assuming that is what you would be using for a parent cartridge still. I'm still thinking that the 338 raptor is about the best as you could get for velocity wise and still somewhat competitive with barrel life compared to the 338 cheytac/snipetac cases. I do know that brass can make or brake a. cartridge and with this American made stuff and a stiff action I think the raptor has extreme potential.