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What external ballistics topics would you like to see explored?

BryanLitz

<b>Official LRH Sponsor</b>
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
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I'm taking suggestions for research topics that we can explore and publish. Primarily the intent is to identify some content for the next volume of the 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting' series. Any suggestions can be considered even beyond the scope of that series though.

Here's some content that's planned for the next volume, to give you an idea of what we're doing:
Exploring dispersion: 1 MOA groups at 100 yards and 1/2 MOA groups at 200...?
Rimfire ballistics: MV and BC test results for many common rimfire types out of various length and twist barrels
Pointing and trimming bullets: Effects on uniformity and magnitude of BC
...

If you have an idea for a test that you'd always like to see done, please reply to this thread with ideas. We always try to do relevant work meaning topics shooters are most interested in, no better way to do that than taking input directly from the shooters.

Thanks!

-Bryan
 
Bryan, congrats on your recent comp win.

This may have already been covered, and I apologize if it has been, but I would like to see ballistics gel tests comparing bullet expansion, weight retention, etc.. with the 7mm 180 VLD-H, VLD-T, and Hybrid Target bullets at different distances from close (100) to long range (1000).

It has really peaked my interest, with all the recent threads (in the last couple years) talking about issues with the VLD's being "too explosive", and all the posts about how well the Hybrid Target bullets are performing on game.

I have not tried the Hybrids on game, but have used the VLD's, and they have worked great. I have a really good load developed using the 180 Hybrids in my 7mm STW, and was wondering how well those might work on game, since Jeff (Broz) says how good the 215 Hybrids work for him.

Also, another thing I have seen mentioned a few times lately, is that some people are claiming that while the Hybrid bullets might be a few grains heavier than their nearest VLD counterpart, they are getting more velocity from the Hybrid, because of the shorter bearing surface. I was curious to know your thoughts on this, as well.
 
Re: What external ballistics topics would you like to see explored

I'm taking suggestions for research topics that we can explore and publish. Primarily the intent is to identify some content for the next volume of the 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting' series. Any suggestions can be considered even beyond the scope of that series though.

Here's some content that's planned for the next volume, to give you an idea of what we're doing:
Exploring dispersion: 1 MOA groups at 100 yards and 1/2 MOA groups at 200...?
Rimfire ballistics: MV and BC test results for many common rimfire types out of various length and twist barrels
Pointing and trimming bullets: Effects on uniformity and magnitude of BC
...

If you have an idea for a test that you'd always like to see done, please reply to this thread with ideas. We always try to do relevant work meaning topics shooters are most interested in, no better way to do that than taking input directly from the shooters.

Thanks!

-Bryan

Bryan,

I have enjoyed your books, and appreciate your efforts in improving the long range shooting community.

At this point i believe you have done such a good job on the major external ballistics factors that you are reaching a point if dimishing returns there. Frankly, we need the same sort of effort concerning internal ballistics.

I would like to see someone pick up where Harold Vaughan left off, and to update, further explore, and expand upon the internal ballistics factors in his book, but in a way that provides good guidance for the shooter, as you have done with external ballistics.

For instance, an indepth study comparing and contrasting the various factors affecting extreme velocity spreads and how to minimize them. Shooters are using an experimental process, basically try and see (just like we used to do with external ballistcs) to develop loads when a better understanding of the variables could lead to a smarter, more systematic approach.

What is the best way to throat a barrel, what lead angle, what neck design? Where is the data on what affects neck tension, how much we want, and why? Is the answer to that powder specific? What causes a rifle to like one load over another? What does changing the seating depth do, and how can that be used? How do various primer makes affect a cartridge, all other things equal? What is the relative importance of each of these factors among others such as neck turnng, primer pocket uniforming, annealing, etc.

We desperately need a volume that consolidates and validates the "conventional" wisdom on these topics, using a data driven approach to separate what we think we know from the truth. Is the optimum barrel time theory correct? Is the ocw method the best, or ladders, or something else? What about bullet coatings, moly vs TI vs HbN? Barrel profiles and lengths? Case neck treatments? Suppressors? How much do various things affect pressure? How to better read brass or other signs for pressure, etc ec.

Many, if not the fact majority, of serious long range shooters load their own ammo in an attempt to control these variables and more, and we have little understanding of their relative importance and their interactions. Unless you can figure out a way to measure wind velocity components accurately using a laser or somethng, I think you have covered external ballistics to the point that much that remains is certainly in the "noise" of the inherent dispersion of the average load long range shooters are using. Help us shrink dispersion and extreme spreads without using up a significant amount if barrel life poking around at this problem!

Thanks,
Matt

P.S. Warning, shameless arm twisting follows: have you seen what kind of money copies of "Rifle accuracy facts" is commanding? People are hungry to understand these machines we call rifles and jow to feed them correctly. Also, Im sure Berger hopes we stay interested in this topic!!
 
I think I've got a pretty good understanding on the horizontal effects of Coriolis when shooting to the North/South. However, most explanations of the vertical contribution of Coriolis when shooting East/West are out of this world...or are actually Eotvos. I'd appreciate a definitive chapter on that.
 
Ambient temperature effects on powder and barrel bore ID in terms of muzzle velocity. What distance does it start to take us more than .5 moa from point of aim if the rifle is a consistent shooter of under .5 moa at 700 plus. What can we do to minimize the effects.

Thanks
Jeff
 
I am not a believer in the seemingly endless claims that "increased muzzle velocity = increased accuracy". But I insist on keeping an open mind whenever possible.
I'd like to see an entire lab experiment based results report on the subject which shows graphs identifying where the lines on the chart cross (if they truly do in a clearly predictable manner)
 
Bryan, I presume it was done to death already however I keep asking myself how much effect do rifling grooves on the bullet surface have? effect drag/BC? Would say a polygon barrel have a positive effect downrange due to less surface damage or roughness? Less grooves better? etc.
best regards from PSE-Composites Ireland
edi
 
I've got a suggestion..

How about an inquiry into velocities, riflings and the friction & heat exumed in different degrees per-each, to try understand where limits lie for various jacket types & designs. ie: j-4, sierra, Noslers Gilding metal variants, mono-metals like Barnes etc etc.. Map out where (& if) each or all of those bullets/jacket types top out for heat resistance and reliability to remain in-tact and not fail. I want to see proven, tested information related to a bullet holding it's integrity under the greatest stresses from ignition, to barrel/rifling contact, right through it's entire flight.. how does each handle these stresses in accordance to each competing one(?) And where does each ones limit lay(?)

I personally believe Hornady is onto something bigger than even-they realize with their new Tips and what goes on with (them) due to heat... (I-think) heat is playing a bigger role toward failure in those Copper jackets in high-capacity casing/chamberings than anyone realizes. I have personally seen nothing but problems in 5 seperate barrels of various twist types (all) in one-single chambering that just won't reliably shoot jacketed bullets... slow twist, fast twist, 5-R, 3-groove, braked and un-braked.. bullets blow up in every configuration I've tried. All but mono-metal solids (because they can't)

...so yah, perfect subject to study. Map out the limits to see whether there is a way around the materials or designs to (in the future) be able to utilize extreme BC bullets like the 195 Berger (for perfect example) in the highest capacity casings with the BEST type of alloyed jacket material to perform 100% without failure. Period. Figure that out and the limits of long range ballistics can be extended to even greater distances with more ease and better predictability than they do presently. I do believe Hornady are the only ones who have just-barely touched the tip of the iceberg regarding heats and their effect on bullets/design/material and flight--

You guys no-doubt have the resources and brains to further this sort of experimenting and then to record it and capitalize on it.. lets see what you can come up with
 
Bryan, Over the past few years I have read all your books and have experienced major improvements in my long range proficiency, and particularly my LR hunting success. Thanks!!!
While I do a lot of long range target shooting/competition, my primary application is long range hunting. I think the area of greatest need is a more comprehensive understanding of bullet construction and design relative to performance on game. I personally believe that raw energy/velocity values, while a good guideline, do not dictate the optimum choice in an effective hunting bullet. Of late there have been numerous threads that claim wide variations in a particular bullets performance on game. Some claim meplat modification is the answer, some don't. Some get excellent results from a specific bullet on game, some don't. I have my own "go to" bullet that I have used exclusively with success for my long range shooting. This is after finding other highly recommended bullets that have worked well for others, ineffective on game I have shot. While I realize that no two shots on game are identical, and this makes it difficult to draw exact conclusions, there is a lot of room for improved knowledge and understanding. IMO.
 
Terminal effects of bullet expansion/deformation. What bullets do to create permanent wound channel? Compare fragmenting bullets to high weight retention bullets? What does energy transfer from bullet to target really mean in relation to causing damage that kills? Do lead core bullets spread lead throughout the meat? Are we eating lead that is dangerous?

There is a lot of campfire myth around this subject, that really needs clarity.

Steve
 
Another test of external ballistics I would like to see, has been the source of numerous heated debates and controversy here on the forum... But without a professional un-biased heads-up test to compare them, it is not definitive as to which one is the winner (in my opinion).

I would like to see a once-and-for-all, head-to-head, definitive (professional) comparison between the new 7mm 195 Hybrid, and the .30 215 Hybrid with all factors being equal, including muzzle velocity.

How do they stack-up to one another? Which one is actually the better LR hunting bullet? Which one has better ballistics and performance? Which one has better weight retention? Which one has better expansion? Which one retains more energy?

How do they compare in a LR ballistics gel test to see their performance at 1000 yards?
 
ejg,

The effects of riflings on BC has been tested and published in 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Volume 1': https://store.appliedballisticsllc.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=0004

Basically, there's little difference in BC for the different riflings until the bullet slows to around transonic speed. After that things get complicated and riflings can matter. The book elaborates a great deal more with modeling and live fire experiments.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, there's a lot of great ideas for experiments. I'm starting to get the same feeling; that external ballistics and our ability to calculate accurate trajectories is pretty well locked down and there are now other bigger fish to fry! I'll continue publishing and training in my field, but it may be time to start looking into other realms as well.

Looking forward to continuing in this field and staying on track with input from the community.

-Bryan
 
If the reason why a bullet's departure axis is typically not where the muzzle axis pointed when the firing pin smacked the primer and got started burning the powder is important to how exterior ballistics puts the bullet somewhere down range, that would be a good topic.
 
I would like to see more of the research that hornady stumbled on. I realize that their's is highly guarded, but what kind of forces does the supersonic bullet in flight encounter. How hot does that tip actually get? Why is it just now that this is being realized when pretty much all the tipped bullets have been doing this the entire time? Why aren't there any other manufacturers getting into this high heat tip?
 
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