Lazz 7.21 (.284) Firebird 162-168gr to 1000Y

[greenejc]

Well it sounds like the Lazzeroni is the go to rifle I guess,,, hopefully I don't have to shoot out to a 1000 yards little lone 500...

I'd like to jump on board for sure,,, but sometimes things in life get in the way,,, hunting,,, fishing,,, camping,,, quading,,, hiking,,, mountain biking,,, big bon-fires and a quality lawn chair,,, family and work along with many other things that add value to the mix...

I suppose I could give up everything to own 1 or 2 of them,,, but what fun would that be,,, no motor boat,,, sell the RV and Quad,,, might as well sell the snow machines,,, no need for the toy hualer... Ha

Yuppers,,, keep the frugal under powered irons I own that cost me nothing less using them,,, or have 1 or 2 awesome rifles that won't do me any good...

Won't be able to go hunting after I sell my truck and Quad,,, how would I retrieve the critter that I shot it 1 or 2 miles on the other side of the massive valley,,,.can't even get it home from the mountains since it won't fit in my little car...

I can see that my life would soon become boring since I have lots of time to look at the new guns I can't even use...

This makes me think that I should of left well enough alone and keep what I have...

Site in at 200 yards and hope for the best,,, don't reach out past that zone to much and try my dammed-est to close the gap of you don't see me but I see you... LOL...

Ho Hummmmm,,, life comes with so many decisions,,, I should of done this and could of done that... I think back now that I should of just kept my new to me 1980 Midland 30/06 with the used Weaver thin wire 4 power scope... Filled lots of freezers over the years,,, 60 ish feet on out to 147 yards,,, alot like the new wiz-bang rifles I own now,,, all 3 of them that is...

Oh well,,, I'll be easy to spot in the great outdoors,,, Old weathered plad lumber jack coat,,, bibbed coveralls,,, floppy Kow girl hat and leather hunting boots from the 1970's...

Jeathrow Bowdean's going hunting... Ha

Like the old guy said,,, follow your purse string,,, it will tell you how much you can afford and The left over funds will be well spent enjoying the new toy...

Life is just that simple I guess...

Cheers from the North

There are lots of hunters out there who have the money to spend on Lazzeroni rifles, just like there are those who can afford an Accuracy International, a McMillan, a Top Hat or a Hawk or a .338 Lapua, either, to name a few. If they can afford it, at $7,000 to $7,500, that's ok. If they feel the need, I understand. I'm like you. I would have to sell things to buy one. And I already get kicked hard enough by the rifles I have. I, personally, don't have a need for one. But if someone else does, the Lazzaroni rifles are very excellent firearms, and will do about anything you could ask of them.

 

[greenejc]

I don't really see the lazz cartridges as designed for long range, at least in the 338 and under. With the slow barrel twists most rifles look spec'd with, you are limited to fairly light bullets. That runs the speeds up, which is great for under 500 yard hunting. A barnes ttsx impacting at 3500fps is pretty effective.
Really a larger advantage at the long range game is bullet bc, some of the hunting bullets out now with g1 bc's near or over .8 make a pretty big difference at long range, more than what a 200-300fps difference in muzzle velocity makes. Thats what makes a 6.5 very effective, you can drive a high bc 140-150gr bullet 2800-3000fps and have some good downrange performance with fairly low recoil and decent barrel life.
Take a warbird and run a 10 twist barrel and a 230gr berger otm and you could get some great down range performance.

It still seems that many are stuck with understanding what huge difference bullet bc makes in downrange speed/energy and drift especially if you are talking a grand plus distance. To meet the current trends the lazz rifles would need to be setup with fast twist barrels to run the high bc bullets.

The thing many of us seem to miss in how effective a projectile is at taking game cleanly. Your 6.5 bullet masses 140 to 150 grains. That's heavy for caliber, but its not heavy. A 200 grain .308 bullet has 33% more mass and a B.C. of around .55. It also has a surface area that's about 35% or 40% greater to deliver that energy before it mushrooms. Also, unless you're talking about some of the over-bore 6.5's, 2800-3000fps is optimistic. The 26 Nosler and the 264 Winmag will get up to 3,000fps and above, along with the 6.5-300 Weatherby, but they're about it for 150grain above 2800fps. To get above 2700fps with most of the others, you need to be using a greater than maximum pressure load. Also, the 150grain bullets in this caliber are all match bullets, and not suitable for hunting. The 180grain, 200 grain, and 220 grain .308 bullets are designed for hunting, and the Warbird delivers them at velocities of 3500+, 3300+ and 3100+ respectively. Penetration, impact and wounding will far exceed any 6.5 at 1000 yards. Its just simple physics. Which would you rather shoot a Coastal Brown Bear with? A 6.5 Nosler(the most powerful production 6.5) with a 150 grain bullet moving around 3200fps or a 45-70 with a 405 grain bullet at around 1800fps from a Marlin? I choose the marlin. By the way, I hunt elk with a .35 Whelen, loaded with either Sierra 225 gamekings or Speer 250 grain Hotcors, at respective mvs of 250fps and 2680fps. The ftlb ratings for these two bullets are over 3780 and 4000ftlbs at the muzzle respectively. These loads deliver as much energy to the target at a thousand yards exceeding the .44 magnum at the muzzle. They also have about twice the surface area and 50 to 75% greater mass. My whelen will far out-penetrate the 6.5 in any cartridge at a distance, much less close up. The Lazzaroni 7.82 Warbird delivers the same energy at 1000 yards as the 6.5 Creedmoor or the .260 Remington delivers at 200 yards. It has 20 to 40% more mass depending on bullet weight(they list load data for the 220grain bullet) and around 25% more surface area to deliver that energy. Again, its simple physics.

 

[yorke-1]

The thing many of us seem to miss in how effective a projectile is at taking game cleanly. Your 6.5 bullet masses 140 to 150 grains. That's heavy for caliber, but its not heavy. A 200 grain .308 bullet has 33% more mass and a B.C. of around .55. It also has a surface area that's about 35% or 40% greater to deliver that energy before it mushrooms. Also, unless you're talking about some of the over-bore 6.5's, 2800-3000fps is optimistic. The 26 Nosler and the 264 Winmag will get up to 3,000fps and above, along with the 6.5-300 Weatherby, but they're about it for 150grain above 2800fps. To get above 2700fps with most of the others, you need to be using a greater than maximum pressure load. Also, the 150grain bullets in this caliber are all match bullets, and not suitable for hunting. The 180grain, 200 grain, and 220 grain .308 bullets are designed for hunting, and the Warbird delivers them at velocities of 3500+, 3300+ and 3100+ respectively. Penetration, impact and wounding will far exceed any 6.5 at 1000 yards. Its just simple physics. Which would you rather shoot a Coastal Brown Bear with? A 6.5 Nosler(the most powerful production 6.5) with a 150 grain bullet moving around 3200fps or a 45-70 with a 405 grain bullet at around 1800fps from a Marlin? I choose the marlin. By the way, I hunt elk with a .35 Whelen, loaded with either Sierra 225 gamekings or Speer 250 grain Hotcors, at respective mvs of 250fps and 2680fps. The ftlb ratings for these two bullets are over 3780 and 4000ftlbs at the muzzle respectively. These loads deliver as much energy to the target at a thousand yards exceeding the .44 magnum at the muzzle. They also have about twice the surface area and 50 to 75% greater mass. My whelen will far out-penetrate the 6.5 in any cartridge at a distance, much less close up. The Lazzaroni 7.82 Warbird delivers the same energy at 1000 yards as the 6.5 Creedmoor or the .260 Remington delivers at 200 yards. It has 20 to 40% more mass depending on bullet weight(they list load data for the 220grain bullet) and around 25% more surface area to deliver that energy. Again, its simple physics.

The problem with everything you've presented, is that numbers and physics don't kill stuff.

 

[greenejc]

The problem with everything you've presented, is that numbers and physics don't kill stuff.

Actually, they do. Mass at velocity kills. The more mass, the more effective the kill. A .510 cal. bullet at 1400 fps weighing around 500 grains will just about blow a coke can sized hole in whatever it hits. A 225 grain .358 Sierra bullet started at 2750 fps will knock a deer off its feet at 200 yards. The exit wound is about 2 to 3 inches. I've killed about 40 Whitetails with this bullet, at distances ranging from 20 yards to 500+ yards. I've only had two go farther than about 3 feet. They drug their noses in the snow for about 20 feet and collapsed. Wounding was always severe and straight-line, with fist sized exit wounds. It IS just physics.

 

[yorke-1]

Actually, they do. Mass at velocity kills. The more mass, the more effective the kill. A .510 cal. bullet at 1400 fps weighing around 500 grains will just about blow a coke can sized hole in whatever it hits. A 225 grain .358 Sierra bullet started at 2750 fps will knock a deer off its feet at 200 yards. The exit wound is about 2 to 3 inches. I've killed about 40 Whitetails with this bullet, at distances ranging from 20 yards to 500+ yards. I've only had two go farther than about 3 feet. They drug their noses in the snow for about 20 feet and collapsed. Wounding was always severe and straight-line, with fist sized exit wounds. It IS just physics.

There are plenty of errors and contradictions in your logic, but those are best left for a separate thread.

 

[LongBomber]

The thing many of us seem to miss in how effective a projectile is at taking game cleanly. Your 6.5 bullet masses 140 to 150 grains. That's heavy for caliber, but its not heavy. A 200 grain .308 bullet has 33% more mass and a B.C. of around .55. It also has a surface area that's about 35% or 40% greater to deliver that energy before it mushrooms. Also, unless you're talking about some of the over-bore 6.5's, 2800-3000fps is optimistic. The 26 Nosler and the 264 Winmag will get up to 3,000fps and above, along with the 6.5-300 Weatherby, but they're about it for 150grain above 2800fps. To get above 2700fps with most of the others, you need to be using a greater than maximum pressure load. Also, the 150grain bullets in this caliber are all match bullets, and not suitable for hunting. The 180grain, 200 grain, and 220 grain .308 bullets are designed for hunting, and the Warbird delivers them at velocities of 3500+, 3300+ and 3100+ respectively. Penetration, impact and wounding will far exceed any 6.5 at 1000 yards. Its just simple physics. Which would you rather shoot a Coastal Brown Bear with? A 6.5 Nosler(the most powerful production 6.5) with a 150 grain bullet moving around 3200fps or a 45-70 with a 405 grain bullet at around 1800fps from a Marlin? I choose the marlin. By the way, I hunt elk with a .35 Whelen, loaded with either Sierra 225 gamekings or Speer 250 grain Hotcors, at respective mvs of 250fps and 2680fps. The ftlb ratings for these two bullets are over 3780 and 4000ftlbs at the muzzle respectively. These loads deliver as much energy to the target at a thousand yards exceeding the .44 magnum at the muzzle. They also have about twice the surface area and 50 to 75% greater mass. My whelen will far out-penetrate the 6.5 in any cartridge at a distance, much less close up. The Lazzaroni 7.82 Warbird delivers the same energy at 1000 yards as the 6.5 Creedmoor or the .260 Remington delivers at 200 yards. It has 20 to 40% more mass depending on bullet weight(they list load data for the 220grain bullet) and around 25% more surface area to deliver that energy. Again, its simple physics.

1. Your speed numbers for a 6.5 are a bit low, I have 5 of them from the cm up to the nosler. A cm will do 2850, 6.5-284 and 260ai 2950-3k, and a 26 will run over 3300 with a 143. All shot past a labradar.
2. Many many people on here hunt with the "match" bullets all the time. Including me, how many people on here shoot bergers? Especially the 215 from a 300.
3. Of course a larger dia bullet will hit with more energy at long distance, if it is also a high bc bullet and retains its speed, but I really think you need to double check some of your long distance numbers with reality. Other much smaller cartridges are getting to a grand with much more energy than what you are with a 35. Physics is simple, but you have to run the correct numbers in. Also you should donsome penetration tests at distance, you will be surprised by what you find.

So you like to hunt with larger caliber rifles, I am not really caliber picky. Would I shoot a big bear with my 26N, sure but it would be with 127lrx which is what I shoot in that. But likely if I am out brown bear hunting I won't be taking the 26, more like a fast 300 or 338. Loaded with a moderate weight tsx or other copper mono bullet.

Guns like these lazz are really not likely to be the only hunting rifle a person owns. Seems like most people with $5k rifles own several.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Actually, they do. Mass at velocity kills. The more mass, the more effective the kill. A .510 cal. bullet at 1400 fps weighing around 500 grains will just about blow a coke can sized hole in whatever it hits. A 225 grain .358 Sierra bullet started at 2750 fps will knock a deer off its feet at 200 yards. The exit wound is about 2 to 3 inches. I've killed about 40 Whitetails with this bullet, at distances ranging from 20 yards to 500+ yards. I've only had two go farther than about 3 feet. They drug their noses in the snow for about 20 feet and collapsed. Wounding was always severe and straight-line, with fist sized exit wounds. It IS just physics.

Physics doesnt kill anything. Broken body parts kill. Poke a hole in the correct spot and the animal dies. Velocity definitely privides for some impressive terminal ballistics. That is only part of the equation. Getting the projectile into contact with the animal has to happen first. External ballistics. And when you get out there very far it becomes a wind game. Heavier high BC bullets going modest velocities like 2900fps seem to provide a more complete package than a lighter lower BC bullet going close to 4000fps. If what you are running works for you, awesome. What works for most others is awesome too. 2+2=4 but so does 6-2.

 

[codyadams]

Lol. I knew I tagged into this thread for a reason....ha ha.

 

[HARPERC]

....Lol. I knew I tagged into this thread for a reason....ha ha

I had to go back to the beginning to remember what we were talking about

The last best reason for not buying expensive firearms for hunting is, if after you buy it you can't afford to go hunting. Been guilty of this myself.

 

[Don A Parsons]

It's funny that humans have been Harvesting game for Thousands of years before the super powers showed up,,, even begining kids that are taking on the challange have reaped the rewards of firearms they can shot accurately...

The pie plate on """most""" critters is easy to punch through with rifle and bow along with spears...

If my 30/06 can't harvest a Thick skin critters at 66 feet or a bit past that distance,,, I might as well sell all my mid size rifles... Ha

Strange that I've harvested game for 40 ish plus years across the Northern part of our Americas from coast to coast with out a problem,,, Elk along the Rocky Mountain Range to Moose on the Canadian Shield,,, with cartridges from 30/06 and down...

Yuppers,,, filled alot of freezers over the years,,, nothing special since lots of other shooters and hunters have accomplished the same tasks...

My $$$ package works for me,,, I'm sure that other people and their funds work for them,,, if the Lazzeroni fits the bill then have at it,,, none of my buissnes what folks want to hunt with...

Like the old guy said,,, if a shooter get a clean break from the trigger and a well placed shot into the pie plate,,, expect to reap the rewards...

It worked for him for 74 years going on 75,,, I'll follow his lead since he's accomished all of his harvests with a 308 Winchester using 150 grain'ers on up to the 180's in his younger years...

The Lazzeroni's sounds like a fantastic rifles,,, that's what really counts. Spend the funds and enjoy the ride,,, same for our kids that enjoy the simple frugal budget rifles they can afford...

Cheers from the North

 

[Huntz]

If Carlos Hathcock had read this thread he would have never attempted his confirmed one shot 1200 yard kill with a 30/06 with a mere straight 8 power scope as he would have it learned it to be impossible.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

The problem with everything you've presented, is that numbers and physics don't kill stuff.

Correct, husbands who come home early do.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

If Carlos Hathcock had read this thread he would have never attempted his confirmed one shot 1200 yard kill with a 30/06 with a mere straight 8 power scope as he would have it learned it to be impossible.

Got to be careful with war stories. A good war story is as reliable as a good fish story.

 

[Tank308]

If Carlos Hathcock had read this thread he would have never attempted his confirmed one shot 1200 yard kill with a 30/06 with a mere straight 8 power scope as he would have it learned it to be impossible.

Hathcock would have done it with what ever he had on hand. But he was very good with what he was familier with. he would have tried with a 50 if it was presented. Kylie did a great shot with a 338 lapua. Didn't hear any 30/06'ers scoffing. It's obvious that the biggest complaint on lazz is "can't afford it" or "I have all I need". I'm glad to hear the hunting story's using either. No one is better of a man because of what he hunts with.