Lazz 7.21 (.284) Firebird 162-168gr to 1000Y

As far as "can't afford it" .. that is always a subjective term. I know Lazz's typically sell for excess of 4-5k and up but I have seen them go for FAR less. Like 1000-1200 with extras. I'm not saying they are fancy or the best kept, but they are out there.
I know this from experience not hearsay because I load for one of these such Firebird finds. He shoots a 175 gr HPBT @ 3100+ to 1600yds (so far). With a Vortex scope.
In my book this is quite affordable.
 
1. Your speed numbers for a 6.5 are a bit low, I have 5 of them from the cm up to the nosler. A cm will do 2850, 6.5-284 and 260ai 2950-3k, and a 26 will run over 3300 with a 143. All shot past a labradar.
2. Many many people on here hunt with the "match" bullets all the time. Including me, how many people on here shoot bergers? Especially the 215 from a 300.
3. Of course a larger dia bullet will hit with more energy at long distance, if it is also a high bc bullet and retains its speed, but I really think you need to double check some of your long distance numbers with reality. Other much smaller cartridges are getting to a grand with much more energy than what you are with a 35. Physics is simple, but you have to run the correct numbers in. Also you should donsome penetration tests at distance, you will be surprised by what you find.

So you like to hunt with larger caliber rifles, I am not really caliber picky. Would I shoot a big bear with my 26N, sure but it would be with 127lrx which is what I shoot in that. But likely if I am out brown bear hunting I won't be taking the 26, more like a fast 300 or 338. Loaded with a moderate weight tsx or other copper mono bullet.

Guns like these lazz are really not likely to be the only hunting rifle a person owns. Seems like most people with $5k rifles own several.
Since all my information is from the Speer, Lyman, Lee and Hodgden manuals, from 24 inch test barrels, and from the Lazzeroni Site, I think my velocities are probably good. I know my Chrony clocked the 140's, loaded to safe levels, from my friend's 6.5 Creedmoor also matched what I listed. The energy/velocities were run on the JDM bullet trajectory/velocity/energy calculator for distances to 1000 yards. I have chronographed the 300 Winmag on my Chrony and on my friend's chronograph: we got the same velocities from his 24 inch barrel, and about an average of 45fps less from the 22" barrel on his M1A. Both were 6.5, and loaded with Sierra Matchkings. They were his reloads, and they averaged about 2690fps or so. I think he was about a grain under the maximum load in the book he used. If you're getting much more than that in a Creedmoor, you're either loading above max loads or you've got a longer barrel. All my data is from max loads for each of the cartridges listed, fired from 24 inch test barrels, except the Lazzeroni (27 inch barrel) and the Lyman data on the .338-378 Weatherby (fired from a 26 inch Weatherby rifle). Straight from the Hodgden manual for the 6.5 Creedmoor: Hybrid V 100: Max charge: 40.9 compressed: vel. 2736fps, 140 grain A-max: Pressure, 59,600psi. 143 grain ELD-X: Superformance: max charge 45.8gr. Vel. 2795fps, pressure 60,300 psi. 150 grain Sierra BTHP: Hybrid 100V: max. charge: 42.6gr., max velocity 2713fps, max average pressure, 60,300psi. The Lee Modern Reloading #2 lists up to the 142 grain jacketed bullet in the Creedmoor, at a max velocity of 2761fps with Ramshot Hunter, and a charge weight of 45.7gr. with pressure of 58,540psi., from a 24 inch test barrel. The Lyman gives lower max velocities at pressures that are comparable. The heaviest bullet it lists in its 50th edition is the 140gr. A-max, at 2680fps, using 44.0gr. of Superformance, with a pressure of 59,500psi. Everything else is below 2620fps at maximum charges/pressures. The Speer manual is propriatory, but that being said, it gives both 140 grain Hotcor and 140 grain Gold dot rifle bullet, giving maximum loads with first, the Hotcor of 45.4 grains (compressed) of Alliant RL23 and a max. velocity of 2779fps, and RL26 with the Golddot 140 grain of 46.9gr (Compressed) and a MV of 2855fps. All other loads are below 2804fps, with most below 2750fps. Saami MAP for this round is 62,000psi. All the loads listed in these manuals are within 4,000psi of the max. If you're getting 2850fps with these bullets/weights, you're either using long barrels or loading at absolute maximum charges/pressures or over them. I don't do that with any of my loads. I learned a long time ago that that damages my rifles or ruins my brass. I've been loading since 1966, and I've spread primer pockets, blown primers, spread case heads, cracked brass at the head, split brass and had actions lock up from running up at max recommended loads. I no longer run at max listed loads/pressures. The information I use(d) is straight out of the four manuals listed, along with information from the Lazzeroni home page for their calibers. As to the potential of the various 6.5 cartridges and projectiles and a comparison to other cartridges/projectiles ranging from .223 up to .458, you should go to /www.ballisticstudies.com and review their information on bullet diameter, weight and velocity, and wounding effectiveness in real-world usage. Also, I just reviewed a couple of bullet data bases for BCs of various manufacturers: Burger has 1 bullet with a bc above .6, Hornaday has 1 bullet with a bc above .6, Lost River has one bullet above .68 but its 120grain, and the rest are .58 and below. Most of the 140gr-150 grain bullets range around .48 to .55bc. That's not from me. /www.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/bullet-database-with-2900-projectiles/ has researched and tested the G1 B.C. of these and several thousand others to determine actual BC. I don't pull this out of my hat. I actually research it from manuals and the manufacturers themselves.
 
Got to be careful with war stories. A good war story is as reliable as a good fish story.
Not a war story. He also had a confirmed kill with a .50BMG at 2500 yards. And the scope he shot through to kill a North Vietnamese sniper is currently in the Marine Corps museum. That shot was made with a 30-06 at 500 yards, approximately. He also won the Wimbleton Cup at Camp Perry in 1966, using a .300 winmag. Before Carlos made his 2500 yard shot, the record was held by Billy Dixon, who set it in 1874 at the Second Battle of Adobe Walls. He used a .50-90 Sharps to kill one of Quana Parker's sub-chiefs at 1580 yards, as measured by the Army Corps of Engineers, and had 36 witnesses to the shot. Not a war-story.
 
Since all my information is from the Speer, Lyman, Lee and Hodgden manuals, from 24 inch test barrels, and from the Lazzeroni Site, I think my velocities are probably good. I know my Chrony clocked the 140's, loaded to safe levels, from my friend's 6.5 Creedmoor also matched what I listed. The energy/velocities were run on the JDM bullet trajectory/velocity/energy calculator for distances to 1000 yards. I have chronographed the 300 Winmag on my Chrony and on my friend's chronograph: we got the same velocities from his 24 inch barrel, and about an average of 45fps less from the 22" barrel on his M1A. Both were 6.5, and loaded with Sierra Matchkings. They were his reloads, and they averaged about 2690fps or so. I think he was about a grain under the maximum load in the book he used. If you're getting much more than that in a Creedmoor, you're either loading above max loads or you've got a longer barrel. All my data is from max loads for each of the cartridges listed, fired from 24 inch test barrels, except the Lazzeroni (27 inch barrel) and the Lyman data on the .338-378 Weatherby (fired from a 26 inch Weatherby rifle). Straight from the Hodgden manual for the 6.5 Creedmoor: Hybrid V 100: Max charge: 40.9 compressed: vel. 2736fps, 140 grain A-max: Pressure, 59,600psi. 143 grain ELD-X: Superformance: max charge 45.8gr. Vel. 2795fps, pressure 60,300 psi. 150 grain Sierra BTHP: Hybrid 100V: max. charge: 42.6gr., max velocity 2713fps, max average pressure, 60,300psi. The Lee Modern Reloading #2 lists up to the 142 grain jacketed bullet in the Creedmoor, at a max velocity of 2761fps with Ramshot Hunter, and a charge weight of 45.7gr. with pressure of 58,540psi., from a 24 inch test barrel. The Lyman gives lower max velocities at pressures that are comparable. The heaviest bullet it lists in its 50th edition is the 140gr. A-max, at 2680fps, using 44.0gr. of Superformance, with a pressure of 59,500psi. Everything else is below 2620fps at maximum charges/pressures. The Speer manual is propriatory, but that being said, it gives both 140 grain Hotcor and 140 grain Gold dot rifle bullet, giving maximum loads with first, the Hotcor of 45.4 grains (compressed) of Alliant RL23 and a max. velocity of 2779fps, and RL26 with the Golddot 140 grain of 46.9gr (Compressed) and a MV of 2855fps. All other loads are below 2804fps, with most below 2750fps. Saami MAP for this round is 62,000psi. All the loads listed in these manuals are within 4,000psi of the max. If you're getting 2850fps with these bullets/weights, you're either using long barrels or loading at absolute maximum charges/pressures or over them. I don't do that with any of my loads. I learned a long time ago that that damages my rifles or ruins my brass. I've been loading since 1966, and I've spread primer pockets, blown primers, spread case heads, cracked brass at the head, split brass and had actions lock up from running up at max recommended loads. I no longer run at max listed loads/pressures. The information I use(d) is straight out of the four manuals listed, along with information from the Lazzeroni home page for their calibers. As to the potential of the various 6.5 cartridges and projectiles and a comparison to other cartridges/projectiles ranging from .223 up to .458, you should go to /www.ballisticstudies.com and review their information on bullet diameter, weight and velocity, and wounding effectiveness in real-world usage. Also, I just reviewed a couple of bullet data bases for BCs of various manufacturers: Burger has 1 bullet with a bc above .6, Hornaday has 1 bullet with a bc above .6, Lost River has one bullet above .68 but its 120grain, and the rest are .58 and below. Most of the 140gr-150 grain bullets range around .48 to .55bc. That's not from me. /www.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/bullet-database-with-2900-projectiles/ has researched and tested the G1 B.C. of these and several thousand others to determine actual BC. I don't pull this out of my hat. I actually research it from manuals and the manufacturers themselves.

Thats a long winded way of saying that very few of your numbers were confirmed by yourself, if any.
And your research just isnt right, I could point out where you are wrong (like your bullet bc list by manufacture) so it makes you look like you are pulling it out of your hat.

But thats ok. Go on with your day.
 
Thats a long winded way of saying that very few of your numbers were confirmed by yourself, if any.
And your research just isnt right, I could point out where you are wrong (like your bullet bc list by manufacture) so it makes you look like you are pulling it out of your hat.

But thats ok. Go on with your day.
Well, there's a reason the manufacturers and SAAMI list max loads and pressures. And if you're not following their manuals, that's your choice. I've got a friend who's a gunsmith and he makes rifles in all the calibers you've listed. I've got four friends who are or have been snipers, and have several of your calibers, if not all of them. None of them have posted the velocities you list in your Creedmoor with the bullet weights you list. But all of them stay within the safe limits given in the manuals. And my research comes straight from the powder and bullet manufacturer's reloading manuals, along with SAAMI. Your argument on safe pressures/velocities is with their manuals. I gave you direct information from them. I didn't guess. I even sent you the site with the B.C. research. You can go on line to Hodgden and get the same reloading data from the people that make Hodgden, IMR and Winchester powders for all your 6.5's, or Speer, for their data. I used their written manuals. They cover more information and bullet weights. And no, I don't own all your 6.5 calibers. But I have shot most of them because my former sniper buddies do have them. You can also check with Alliant's reloading site for all of your 6.5's. If you don't believe their pressure/velocity data, that's your decision.
 
I'm usually wary of guys who write books about their confirmed kills.
He didn't write it. He did give first-hand information, which is backed up by archival records from the Marine Corps. And all of them (the confirmed kills) were confirmed by the US Marine corps. For confirmation, each confirmed kill had to have been seen by a commissioned officer who had to be a third party, not part of the sniper team. Hathcock had 93 kills confirmed in this way. He has between 300 and 400 actual kills, but many were behind enemy lines, and could not be confirmed by a commissioned officer.
 
He didn't write it. He did give first-hand information, which is backed up by archival records from the Marine Corps. And all of them (the confirmed kills) were confirmed by the US Marine corps. For confirmation, each confirmed kill had to have been seen by a commissioned officer who had to be a third party, not part of the sniper team. Hathcock had 93 kills confirmed in this way. He has between 300 and 400 actual kills, but many were behind enemy lines, and could not be confirmed by a commissioned officer.

This thread is full of interesting facts.
 
Just so you'll know, Charles Henderson wrote the book "Marine Sniper-93 Confirmed Kills", not Carlos Hathcock. And he (Hathcock) was No.4 in the highest kills in Vietnam. The soldier with the most kills was an Army Staff Sargant named Albert F. Waldron. He was in the 9th Inf. Div., and is credited with, variously, either 109 confirmed kills or 113 confirmed kills. I think the official number is 109. There were also two other Marines who had more kills than Gsgt Hathcock: Charles (Chuck) Mawhinney, with 101 confirmed, and Eric England with 98 confirmed kills. And SSG Waldron was one hell of a shot. He once shot an enemy sniper in a tree, firing from a moving boat on the Mekong river. The shot was 900 yards. The shot was confirmed. This is all public record. And I know how they did confirmed kills because while I didn't go to sniper school, I did work as one a few times. And I shoot with at least three retired snipers, along with my younger brother, who is a Special Forces trained sniper, and a qualified counter-sniper from Texas. I spent 20 years in the Infantry and taught both basic and advanced marksmanship with rifle, pistol and machine gun, so I studied the careers of these men and others (Maj. Lamb, USMC) to learn how they did it. And no, I don't know everything, not even a patch on what the men above knew. But I know ballistics, and I can read a reloading manual, and I've shot around 60 or 70,000 rifle rounds, from 5.56 up to 45-70 and 50-90 Sharps. I've shot at distances to 1100 and 1200 meters, and I've hit in full value crosswinds up to 25 mph. I've been shooting regularly since I was 12 years old, and still get in around 100 rounds a week most of the time.
 
I may be missing the point someplace along the line here, but I cannot figure out how the latest crop of 6.5 shorts/longs can be as effective on game animals at the longer ranges to 1000 yards, as the Lazzeroni 7.21 (.284) Firebird and 7.82 (.308) Warbird.

Certainly the Lazz rifles are more expensive than most folks want to pay, but the Lazz calibers themselves are some of THE most effective on game anywhere in the world.

Lazzeroni ballistics here https://www.lazzeroni.com/Ballistics-Charts_c_20.html

Let's stay on this thread's topic.
 
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