Lazz 7.21 (.284) Firebird 162-168gr to 1000Y

[TrainingSgt]

Physics doesnt kill anything. Broken body parts kill. Poke a hole in the correct spot and the animal dies. Velocity definitely privides for some impressive terminal ballistics. That is only part of the equation. Getting the projectile into contact with the animal has to happen first. External ballistics. And when you get out there very far it becomes a wind game. Heavier high BC bullets going modest velocities like 2900fps seem to provide a more complete package than a lighter lower BC bullet going close to 4000fps. If what you are running works for you, awesome. What works for most others is awesome too. 2+2=4 but so does 6-2.

Show me some pix! Talk is cheap. Confirmed distance and dead animals on the ground. Proves the point.

 

[Don A Parsons]

I'll try my best to not shoot any Elk or Moose past a 1000 yards if it makes people feel better...

Would I be ok at 200 yards with my 6.5,,, or should I just leave it at home...

Now I feel bad since the big scary critters have me under-gunn'ed...

Dang Namit,,, just when I thought I had it all figured out...

The limitations of the brick wall... Ha

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Show me some pix! Talk is cheap. Confirmed distance and dead animals on the ground. Proves the point.

I, um how do I say? Poked a hole in this deers heart and lungs at 200 yards and it died. My bullet made contact where it mattered. Yeah short range. Where I hunt I don't get super long shots. Where i target shoot at 400-670 yards the wind is the biggest factor in making hits on steel. My 308 and 30-06 shooting 175s make hits way more reliably than my .223 or 22-250 shooting 55 and 40 grainers. The process is the same. If I had missed the shot with a super magnum it wouldn't have died.

 

[greenejc]

Ok, back on topic. The Lazzeroni Firebird 7.21mm has an edge on any of the fastest 6.5mm rounds of around 300fps, in bullet weights of 140, 150 and 160grains. It lists max velocities of 3700+, 3600+, 3500+ in these bullet weights. That's an edge of over 300fps with each weight, a larger caliber, and BCs that can be comparable depending on who manufactures your bullets. If Lazzeroni has done reloading data on the 168, 175 and 180 grain bullets, and if the rifle will stabilize them, that would make it an even better long range rifle. But as it is, it blows any of the commercial 6.5s out of the water at any range out to around 1400 yards, period.

Show me some pix! Talk is cheap. Confirmed distance and dead animals on the ground. Proves the point.

Here's the website with the pix. Its been used on this forum before. https://www.ballisticstudies.com/

 

[greenejc]

I'll try my best to not shoot any Elk or Moose past a 1000 yards if it makes people feel better...

Would I be ok at 200 yards with my 6.5,,, or should I just leave it at home...

Now I feel bad since the big scary critters have me under-gunn'ed...

Dang Namit,,, just when I thought I had it all figured out...

The limitations of the brick wall... Ha

Lots of moose in Europe and Canada have been taken with the 6.5X55 at or around 200 yards and closer. It is a very popular caliber in Europe for Red stag, too. As long as you stay within the cartridge's limitations, it will work. What 6.5 are you shooting?

 

[yorke-1]

Ok, back on topic. The Lazzeroni Firebird 7.21mm has an edge on any of the fastest 6.5mm rounds of around 300fps, in bullet weights of 140, 150 and 160grains. It lists max velocities of 3700+, 3600+, 3500+ in these bullet weights. That's an edge of over 300fps with each weight, a larger caliber, and BCs that can be comparable depending on who manufactures your bullets. If Lazzeroni has done reloading data on the 168, 175 and 180 grain bullets, and if the rifle will stabilize them, that would make it an even better long range rifle. But as it is, it blows any of the commercial 6.5s out of the water at any range out to around 1400 yards, period.

The Lazzeroni rounds are excellent performers, but the comparison you're making isn't accurate. You can't compare the performance of a 140gr 6.5 bullet to the performance of a 140gr 7mm bullet, especially when comparing cases with dramatically different case capacities. The 7 RUM would be a more appropriate cartridge to compare to the Firebird since the RUM is the closest match which has factory ammunition available.

Again, the Lazzeroni rounds are top performers on their own merits. They don't need biased information to validate that performance. They don't offer much advantage to a handloader who's willing to work with wildcat chamberings, but they all work extremely well for folks looking for top level performance with factory loaded ammo available. There are plenty of people who don't have the time or desire to deal with loading their own ammunition. Time is valuable and I know a lot of people who're willing to pay a considerable amount for ammunition if it means they're free to do something else with their time. I'd be willing to be that those types of people are the primary customers of Lazzeroni.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Ok, back on topic. The Lazzeroni Firebird 7.21mm has an edge on any of the fastest 6.5mm rounds of around 300fps, in bullet weights of 140, 150 and 160grains. It lists max velocities of 3700+, 3600+, 3500+ in these bullet weights. That's an edge of over 300fps with each weight, a larger caliber, and BCs that can be comparable depending on who manufactures your bullets. If Lazzeroni has done reloading data on the 168, 175 and 180 grain bullets, and if the rifle will stabilize them, that would make it an even better long range rifle. But as it is, it blows any of the commercial 6.5s out of the water at any range out to around 1400 yards, period.

That seems to be lots of peoples hesitation with the Lazz cartridges. They are high performance no doubt but they are leaving performance on the table by being set up with twist rates that cant make use of higher BC bullets. That 7mm has the capacity to push a 195 real fast. Yes it would lose some speed but it would increase its range without sacrificing any real world closer range killing power.

 

[greenejc]

The Lazzeroni rounds are excellent performers, but the comparison you're making isn't accurate. You can't compare the performance of a 140gr 6.5 bullet to the performance of a 140gr 7mm bullet, especially when comparing cases with dramatically different case capacities. The 7 RUM would be a more appropriate cartridge to compare to the Firebird since the RUM is the closest match which has factory ammunition available.

Again, the Lazzeroni rounds are top performers on their own merits. They don't need biased information to validate that performance. They don't offer much advantage to a handloader who's willing to work with wildcat chamberings, but they all work extremely well for folks looking for top level performance with factory loaded ammo available. There are plenty of people who don't have the time or desire to deal with loading their own ammunition. Time is valuable and I know a lot of people who're willing to pay a considerable amount for ammunition if it means they're free to do something else with their time. I'd be willing to be that those types of people are the primary customers of Lazzeroni.

Oh, I agree with you. There is no comparison. But John Lazzaroni began this blog by asking how anyone could think that the current crop of 6.5s could possibly be as or more effective than his 7.21 Firebird at any range out to 1000 yards. And the (obvious) answer is they can't be, and aren't. Which answer has been given several times by several people. But if I spent $7,000+ on a new Lazzaroni rifle in .308 or 338 my wife would kill and then divorce me. With my own guns. Possibly in my sleep, and used as clubs so it would hurt more.

 

[Huntz]

CH had a confirmed kill at 2400 yards with a 50BMG.That distance stood for a long time.My Uncle was a Marine in the Korean war.They regularly used the Ma Deuce for sniping long distance and gave the NORKS fits.

 

[Frog4aday]

...and, we drift OFF topic again.
Back on topic:
Lazzeroni = fast, powerful cartridges fired out of expensive guns for people who can afford and desire such things. Good! People love choices. Lazzeroni offers that. The price of entry (guns) and 'continued play' (cartridges) will always limit popularity, but it seems like the same business path Weatherby settled on all those years ago - build quality firearms that can really crank out the velocity and hit 'hard'. But you will pay a price (recoil...always the recoil.)

As others have said, Lazz could capture some more market share if they were to change some specs on their guns to go with a faster twist rate and load up cartridges with high BC value bullets in them. Making brass available and more affordable would help, too.

Right now everyone is 'high' on the 6.5CM and I get it. Recoil is mild. Power is good/adequate for most lower 48 game. It shoots high BC bullets to fight wind drift and drop. The case is 'efficient'. Barrels last a long time. So much "good" there. But it is not a high speed cartridge. It is not a high power cartridge. Comparing it to the various Lazzeroni offerings seems to be an apples-to-oranges exercise in futility. Different goals and design choices. Both good...depending on what YOU are looking for in a gun/cartridge combo.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

@Frog4aday your answers are always on point.

 

[waveslayer]

I think @Frog4aday nailed it perfectly.

But one thing I am not understanding is why everyone is to hell bent on having to buy a Lazzeroni rifle to shoot any of John's rounds? I have had 2 different rifles chambered in 7.82 Warbird and I didn't spend nearly close to $7K. I think my glass cost more then the rifle did. I recently just built another one using a Proof Barrel and I didn's spend 1,000's of dollars...

Have a good smith build you a rifle chambered in it, just like all those fancy .308's, Creedmoor's, etc.

 

[LazzInc]

waveslayer ,,, I could not agree more ,,,,

even though I DO build one of the finest bolt action hunting rifles in the world, there are plenty of competent rifle builders out there who will build a top-notch bolt action hunting rifle and chamber it for a Lazzeroni cartridge ,,,,

current polygon barrel twist rates for Lazzeroni rifles as follows by caliber ,,,,,

6.53 (.257) Scramjet --- 10 twist
7.21 (.284) Firebird --- 9 twist ,,,,,
7.82 (.308) Warbird --- 10 twist ,,,,,
8.59 (.338) Titan --- 10 twist ,,,,
9.53 (.375) Saturn --- 11 twist ,,,
10.57 (.416) Meteor --- 14 twist ,,,,,
12.04 (475) Bibamufu --- 14 twist ,,,,

 

[Deleted member 48126]

waveslayer ,,, I could not agree more ,,,,

even though I DO build one of the finest bolt action hunting rifles in the world, there are plenty of competent rifle builders out there who will build a top-notch bolt action hunting rifle and chamber it for a Lazzeroni cartridge ,,,,

current polygon barrel twist rates for Lazzeroni rifles as follows by caliber ,,,,,

6.53 (.257) Scramjet --- 10 twist
7.21 (.284) Firebird --- 9 twist ,,,,,
7.82 (.308) Warbird --- 10 twist ,,,,,
8.59 (.338) Titan --- 10 twist ,,,,
9.53 (.375) Saturn --- 11 twist ,,,
10.57 (.416) Meteor --- 14 twist ,,,,,
12.04 (475) Bibamufu --- 14 twist ,,,,

Wait...those are good twist rates. I thought they weren't good for heavies? 1:10 is the standard for .308