Hang fires. Opinions on cause?

[LVJ76]

Bad primers. Why?

If you heard the primer pop, followed by the powder boom then its a powder issue. If you only heard one boom, then it's slow detonation of the primer.

Evidence that it's bad primers, is that one primer didn't even ignite. Unless, again, if you hear the primer go off and then the powder on the ones that did fire

 

[ForgivenAll]

I had a bunch of Win760 on the shelf so I looked up the starting load data for my son's 270WSM, assembled the rounds with magnum primers, and went out to try them out. After the second hang-fire we were very suspect and stopped. But between the two hang-fires, one round didn't detonate (thinking maybe it was a bad primer or something) so after waiting for what seemed like eternity (in case this was a longer hang-fire) I ejected it and when I disassembled it at home I found the ball powder was fused together in spots. Looked like those little atom diagrams but this was a bit irregular shaped balls of ball powder about the size of a pea (just small enough to pour out of the neck). Needless to say, we didn't use that for his rifle any further.

 

[WildRose]

Loaded up four rounds to test today in my 7 Rem Mag. These are part of my quest to get rid of "trash" on my shelves, in order to still have some plinking/practice, without chewing through my premium stuff. Just loaded enough to get a speed reading and basic precision potential, before corking up a bunch to salt the wheat fields with lead.

Load...

139 Interbond Blems bought from Midway at least a decade ago.
54.5 gr of H380 bought at least a decade ago
CCI200 LRP no idea when I bought them, but think it's less than a decade ago.
Thoroughly abused Federal brass
~2880 fps

3 of 4 had hang fires of 1/4-1/2 second. One didn't fire at all. Not cool, but on the bright side, it confirmed the nut on the trigger was torqued down properly, as I didn't twitch or blink a bit, and put the 3 that fired into a 3/4 MOA group at 200 yds. I should get into flintlocks...

Likely culprits in no particular order...

1) Bad primers
2) Bad powder
3) Bad ignition due inappropriate load of H380 and LRP in 7RM (~75% fill according to QuickLOAD)
4) Other

What's your vote? I'll post a little more evidence if folks chime in with questions. I think I know the cause, but thought this might be fun mystery to ponder.

I hate to say this but dump all of those loads and start over.

Ball powders require really good primers to ignite well so I would not use anything other than magnum primers but... .

I had the same problem with some very old H414 and H380 many moons ago. I was told by Hodgdon I had one of two issues or possibly both.

1) Not enough case fill causing inconsistent/slow ignition.
2) Powder had gone bad.

They warned me not to shoot any more of those loads and to dispose of the powder as it was probably somehow tainted and could cause catastrophic overpressure.

I try to go for a minimum of 90% case fill on all my loads these days and I've never run into it again.

For the 7RM I think you'd be far better off using H1000 if you have any, RL 23 and 26 have been good for me in that size case as well.

I have to give Hodgdon credit, on the off chance it was bad powder they sent me a pound of each. What a great way to build customer loyalty.

 

[esshup]

I don't have an answer to the OP's question, but can't abnormally low charges of certain powders detonate and cause excessive pressures?

I wonder if the same scenario would have happened to the OP if he would have used a filler material on top of the powder to keep the powder back against the primer and 0 air space in the case?

 

[highbrow]

I've had the same problem with various ball powders. Using a starting charge of H414 in 300 WinMag with CCI large rifle magnum primers, was getting hang fires also. I also had the same problem in 223 with ball powders and Wolf primers. Never a problem with extruded powder.

 

[Gene Allen]

I don't remember the exact load but had the same problem with a ball powder in 300 win & 168gr bullet with mag primers !

 

[WildRose]

I don't have an answer to the OP's question, but can't abnormally low charges of certain powders detonate and cause excessive pressures?

I wonder if the same scenario would have happened to the OP if he would have used a filler material on top of the powder to keep the powder back against the primer and 0 air space in the case?

Yes, the excess oxygen volume allows for a huge flash but it's a delayed flash.

I didn't quite get the physics of why it caused the delay but He makes the powder so I took him at his word.

 

[WildRose]

I wonder if the same scenario would have happened to the OP if he would have used a filler material on top of the powder to keep the powder back against the primer and 0 air space in the case?

Possibly but that's not a gamble I'd be willing to take.

 

[436]

Loaded up four rounds to test today in my 7 Rem Mag. These are part of my quest to get rid of "trash" on my shelves, in order to still have some plinking/practice, without chewing through my premium stuff. Just loaded enough to get a speed reading and basic precision potential, before corking up a bunch to salt the wheat fields with lead.

Load...

139 Interbond Blems bought from Midway at least a decade ago.
54.5 gr of H380 bought at least a decade ago
CCI200 LRP no idea when I bought them, but think it's less than a decade ago.
Thoroughly abused Federal brass
~2880 fps

3 of 4 had hang fires of 1/4-1/2 second. One didn't fire at all. Not cool, but on the bright side, it confirmed the nut on the trigger was torqued down properly, as I didn't twitch or blink a bit, and put the 3 that fired into a 3/4 MOA group at 200 yds. I should get into flintlocks...

Likely culprits in no particular order...

1) Bad primers
2) Bad powder
3) Bad ignition due inappropriate load of H380 and LRP in 7RM (~75% fill according to QuickLOAD)
4) Other

What's your vote? I'll post a little more evidence if folks chime in with questions. I think I know the cause, but thought this might be fun mystery to ponder.

I think I'd start with #3 as well, but... how about primer depth? Check your powder for any "rust" coloring.

 

[baldhunter]

CCI primer.I had that same issue with CCI 200 primers.In my case it was a starting load of Reloader 22 in a 300 Win Mag.I was doing some fire lapping on a rifle,so I though since it was a starting load and I wasn't doing anything but running a bunch of bullets down the barrel,I'd burn up the older Large Rifle Primers I had on hand.It's a bad feeling when you squeeze off a shot,see the cocking indicator on the rear of the bolt go in and a second or so later it goes off.What's worse than that is it doesn't go off and you wait,and wait,and wait and it doesn't go off.Is it going to go off????? If I eject it is it going to go off a little later.I had several that gave me a hang fire and a couple that did not go off.I pulled the bullets when I got home and dumped the powder.The powder was black and sooty,but not one single grain had ignited inside the case.The primer was not hot enough to ignite the powder.Some powders may be easier to ingite,,but apparently Reloader22 is not one of them.

 

[WildRose]

I wonder if the same scenario would have happened to the OP if he would have used a filler material on top of the powder to keep the powder back against the primer and 0 air space in the case?

Possibly but that's not a gamble I'd be willing to take.

CCI primer.I had that same issue with CCI 200 primers.In my case it was a starting load of Reloader 22 in a 300 Win Mag.I was doing some fire lapping on a rifle,so I though since it was a starting load and I wasn't doing anything but running a bunch of bullets down the barrel,I'd burn up the older Large Rifle Primers I had on hand.It's a bad feeling when you squeeze off a shot,see the cocking indicator on the rear of the bolt go in and a second or so later it goes off.What's worse than that is it doesn't go off and you wait,and wait,and wait and it doesn't go off.Is it going to go off????? If I eject it is it going to go off a little later.I had several that gave me a hang fire and a couple that did not go off.I pulled the bullets when I got home and dumped the powder.The powder was black and sooty,but not one single grain had ignited inside the case.The primer was not hot enough to ignite the powder.Some powders may be easier to ingite,,but apparently Reloader22 is not one of them.

Give it a slow fifteen count. If it hasn't gone off by then it's not going to.

That's even a five second buffer over what we're taught as instructors as to how to handle them.

 

[Rflshootr]

How much neck tension are you using?

 

[entoptics]

Lots of good thoughts. I won't have a chance to confirm till next week at the earliest, when I can isolate each component and see what happens, but here's my thoughts...

It's a combo of all three...

1) I think the powder is not quite right, as I looked at it closely, and there's some discolored grains in the fresh powder. After pulling the round that didn't fire, there were tons of yellow grains in there. Anyone who shoots H110 in magnum pistols has seen this "poorly burnt" powder before.

2) I think the primers were bad also. Again, with the pulled round, there was clearly some soot on the base of the bullet, and the primer compound was gone. Thing is though, the COAL hadn't changed a bit. In my experience, a primer blast is sufficient to jam a bullet into the lands, and in some cases, even drive it a ways into the bore. This primer didn't even have enough ooomph to push the bullet out of the case at all.

3) Take the above two conditions, and the fact that ball powders can be tougher to ignite, particularly in a "not meant to be used this way scenario", and any marginal issues are magnified.

Just for the sake of science, I intend to try a couple with the H380 over a known good LRM primer, as well as the suspect primers under a known good powder appropriate for a 7RM Mag (RL26 most likely).

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I've had this condition twice... Once was with Hornady 30-06 factories and once was with Magpro and 215's in one of my belted mags(I forget which one as it was many moons ago). I talked with the Sierra guys as I was looking for 25wssm data right after it came out. They said it is sometimes a chemical reaction issue between the primer and bullet and can happen with fresh components too. Simply switch your powder or primer.

edited- spelling