Opinions on Bullet Designs

[MajorSpittle]

So I am looking at different bullet designs as I would like to develop a universal load for my 30-06 and my .270 win. I am looking for performance from 0 to 800 yards on both Deer and Elk. High BC is desired and needs to carry 1000+ Ft lbs of energy to 800 yards. These are my general requirements.

In general is see 2 extremes that must be satisfied:

1. Penetration for quartering shots inside 300 yards
2. Energy transfer at 800 yards

In close range ideal shots, any heavy hunting bullet should be ok for either rifle, in my opinion. No matter where you hit the animal any hunting round will expend enough energy to get the job done if at all possible. With the high energy anything should get the job done (milk jug shot by any bullet from '06/270 at 100yrs blows up, 800 yards it is not so much the case).

I am thinking 150 Partitions for the 270 might be best and 208 ELD-M for the '06.

I am looking for other people's opinions on what they have found works for similar uses.

 

[gohring3006]

I run the 208 eld in 30-06.
I don't have any kills with it, but it's a good bullet for long range accuracy. I hex coat mine and run them 2750 FPS in lapua brass and rl17. I have went over 2800 FPS in win brass.
It holds its own, 8 mils up at 1000 yards.

 

[entoptics]

I run the 208 eld in 30-06.
I don't have any kills with it, but it's a good bullet for long range accuracy. I hex coat mine and run them 2750 FPS in lapua brass and rl17. I have went over 2800 FPS in win brass.
It holds its own, 8 mils up at 1000 yards.

Heysoos Chreesto! Is that a 28 inch barrel or something? I've some experience with 30-06, and 2750 with a 208 seems extreme! That's 200 FPS faster than the Alliant Reloader guide gives for a 200 gr bullet and RL17, 150 fps faster than the fastest quoted velocity in a 24" barrel for a 208 from Hodgdon, and 100 fps over the hottest load in the Nosler Guide for a 210 NABLR.

Anyway, to the OP. I'm not sure if there's any bullet that'll do what you want in a 30-06, let alone a 270. 800 yds is a heck of a long poke for either of those cartridges for an elk. It's a heck of a poke for any cartridge frankly.

I ran some numbers through JBM, and best case scenario, using Gohring's screaming load, with the near magical B.C. the 208 provides (~0.690), that puppy is still only going just over 1800 fps at 800 yds. By most accounts, that's right about the minimum for hunting bullets. Knock at least 100 fps off that for more "normal" 30-06 speeds, and you're well into marginal territory. The 208 is on the fragile side I think, so up close it's gonna be less than ideal.

For 270, if your gun has a fast enough twist to stabilize the few higher B.C. options, you might be able to get 1000 ftlbs and 1800 fps at 800 with a 145 ELD-X at 2950 fps, which just squeaks past that. I tried the ELD in my 270, and it shot like crap unfortunately.

Anyway, there's really no free lunch. Bullets that will hold up to high speed impacts, are obviously not ideal for low speed, and vice versa.

 

[gohring3006]

Heysoos Chreesto! Is that a 28 inch barrel or something? I've some experience with 30-06, and 2750 in with a 208 seems extreme! That's 200 FPS faster than the Alliant Reloader guide gives for a 200 gr bullet and RL17, 150 fps faster than the fastest quoted velocity in a 24" barrel for a 208 from Hodgdon, and 100 fps over the hottest load in the Nosler Guide for a 210 NABLR.

Anyway, to the OP. I'm not sure if there's any bullet that'll do what you want in a 30-06, let alone a 270. 800 yds is a heck of a long poke for either of those cartridges for an elk. It's a heck of a poke for any cartridge frankly.

I ran some numbers through JBM, and best case scenario, using Gohring's screaming load, with the near magical B.C. the 208 provides (~0.690), that puppy is still only going just over 1800 fps at 800 yds. By most accounts, that's right about the minimum for hunting bullets. Knock at least 100 fps off that for more "normal" 30-06 speeds, and you're well into marginal territory. The 208 is on the fragile side I think, so up close it's gonna be less than ideal.

For 270, if your gun has a fast enough twist to stabilize the few higher B.C. options, you might be able to get 1000 ftlbs and 1800 fps at 800 with a 145 ELD-X at 2950 fps, which just squeaks past that. I tried the ELD in my 270, and it shot like crap unfortunately.

Anyway, there's really no free lunch. Bullets that will hold up to high speed impacts, are obviously not ideal for low speed, and vice versa.

Lol, yeah it's fast, but Hex boron nitride does some amazing things. 24" barrel

 

[MajorSpittle]

I have a t3 lite 06 and I'm getting about 2670 with my 208 eld-m load. This is neck sizing with a long coal over superformance. Seems fast but charge is under book and no pressure signs.

Have people been having issues dropping elk at close range with 200+ grain 30 cal anything launched with over 3k of energy?

 

[entoptics]

I have a t3 lite 06 and I'm getting about 2670 with my 208 eld-m load...

Have people been having issues dropping elk at close range with 200+ grain 30 cal anything launched with over 3k of energy?

You specifically mentioned "penetration for quartering shots", and there are many anecdotes of failure to penetrate bone with "soft" bullets of all kinds.

I'm not an accomplished hunter at all, but I've shot two small whitetail in the boiler, only ribs in the path, with a 200+ 30 cal, launched with about 3800 ftlbs muzzle energy. Both were not DRT.

1) Broadside across the top of both lungs, 200 Sierra GK, 350 yds, impact at ~2550 ftlbs and ~2550 fps. Ended up shooting that one twice after a wide open field chase of a few hundred yards.

2) Slight quartering, bullet entered the back of the port side lung, went out the front of the starboard side lung. 208 ELD-M, 552 yds, impact at ~2300 ftlbs, and ~2200 fps. Bolted 40 yds and piled up.

Both instances, bullets passed through and damaged everything in between badly. They weren't Thor's hammer though, and that's from a moderate Win Mag going 200 fps faster than a feisty '06.

I'm not a sniper by any means, but even if I absolutely knew the shot would hit broadside boiler room, I probably wouldn't take a shot on an elk with my 300WM recipe at 800 yds with a 208 ELDM (or probably any bullet).

YMMV

 

[MajorSpittle]

You specifically mentioned "penetration for quartering shots", and there are many anecdotes of failure to penetrate bone with "soft" bullets of all kinds.

I'm not an accomplished hunter at all, but I've shot two small whitetail in the boiler, only ribs in the path, with a 200+ 30 cal, launched with about 3800 ftlbs muzzle energy. Both were not DRT.

1) Broadside across the top of both lungs, 200 Sierra GK, 350 yds, impact at ~2550 ftlbs and ~2550 fps. Ended up shooting that one twice after a wide open field chase of a few hundred yards.

2) Slight quartering, bullet entered the back of the port side lung, went out the front of the starboard side lung. 208 ELD-M, 552 yds, impact at ~2300 ftlbs, and ~2200 fps. Bolted 40 yds and piled up.

Both instances, bullets passed through and damaged everything in between badly. They weren't Thor's hammer though, and that's from a moderate Win Mag going 200 fps faster than a feisty '06.

I'm not a sniper by any means, but even if I absolutely knew the shot would hit broadside boiler room, I probably wouldn't take a shot on an elk with my 300WM recipe at 800 yds with a 208 ELDM (or probably any bullet).

YMMV

Thanks for the reply and insight. Quartering shots would be my biggest concern with an eld-m.

I would be surprised if any other bullet would work much better than a 208 eld-m at 800yrds broadside on an elk from a 300wm. As far as being DRT, I once saw a button buck mulley get hit by a 300wm at about 100yrds. It was a low lung shot with cheap production ammo and it ran close to 75yrds before dropping dead. Left a trail of red frothy blood the whole way and had a nice size exit wound. I don't find this terribly odd as the impact was away from the nervous system so the deer was never dazed, crippled, or knocked out. It lived until it lost too much blood and ran that whole time. It was a good shot and bullet worked fine.

It sounds to me like in the two shots you cite the bullets performed good. I would never expect a small white tail to stop a heavy bullet from a 300wm at those ranges and both bullets left a good wound channel from the sounds of it. In a heavier animal like elk I bet much more energy would have been expended on the vitals.

 

[Buddro]

I dont have any bullets to suggest but I will suggest you do some serious combing through this website If I remember correctly it establishes something to the tune of "the only consistent predictor of lethality is size of permanent wound channel through cardio pulmonary tissue." It is extremely informative and written by a very legitimate author. I believe a balastician at Sandia national labs. My biggest take from it was that I would much prefer to send bits of bullet on lines tangential to the path of the bullet in order to reach out and find good bits than to use a bullet that makes a nice deep straight channel no matter what. (there are certainly scenarios when I would choose penetration over fragmentation but they are more the exception than the rule)

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

the ballistic studies website has some great write ups on bullet design and performance. it is a great source to cross check information from this message board. His write ups typically assess a bullets ability both to penetrate and to "reach out"

 

[JIsbell40]

Ill bite. I briefly shot 208 eldm in my 30" 300wby ALOT faster than anything posted in this thread thus far. Rl26 3320FPS. The eldm have zero chance of exiting on harder quartering shots in 100 pound does army impacts above 2800 FPS. Doing crop management with a nuisance permit In a one week period I killed 26 does with that load. I got a total of 5 exit holes. Some broad side but most quartering. I switched to 215 Bergers and I get a pass through on these does all the time. Usually on big bucks as well. The ELDm is very very very soft. Too soft for my 300wby and my 7wsm. When I'm shooting trophy deer, I want an exit. Deer bleed on the ground when there's an exit. Not so much when there's only an entrance. I don't feel like beating around in the dark looking for a deer I know I've killed but can't find because it ran 150 yards down a mtn and didn't bleed a drop.

 

[MajorSpittle]

Ill bite. I briefly shot 208 eldm in my 30" 300wby ALOT faster than anything posted in this thread thus far. Rl26 3320FPS. The eldm have zero chance of exiting on harder quartering shots in 100 pound does army impacts above 2800 FPS. Doing crop management with a nuisance permit In a one week period I killed 26 does with that load. I got a total of 5 exit holes. Some broad side but most quartering. I switched to 215 Bergers and I get a pass through on these does all the time. Usually on big bucks as well. The ELDm is very very very soft. Too soft for my 300wby and my 7wsm. When I'm shooting trophy deer, I want an exit. Deer bleed when there's an exit. Not so much when there's only an entrance. I don't feel like beating around in the dark looking for a deer I know I've killed but can't find because it ran 150 yards down a mtn and didn't bleed a drop.

So the 100lb deer weren't dying after being hit by a 208gr bullet launched at over 3300fps!!! I would think if the bullets weren't exiting at all, then that energy being absorbed by a target that small would have its whole insides liquefied and you found the perfect bullet.
I am not sure if an exit wound would really make something bleed faster, or if ot is more of a case that most deer that don't have an exit wound were hit with a bullet that had little energy to begin with?

 

[JIsbell40]

So the 100lb deer weren't dying after being hit by a 208gr bullet launched at over 3300fps!!! I would think if the bullets weren't exiting at all, then that energy being absorbed by a target that small would have its whole insides liquefied and you found the perfect bullet.
I am not sure if an exit wound would really make something bleed faster, or if ot is more of a case that most deer that don't have an exit wound were hit with a bullet that had little energy to begin with?

Nowhere did I say the didn't die or that a pass through makes them bleed faster. The difference is internal bleeding vs external bleeding. The difference is relying on a DRT vs having a BLOOD TRAIL.

Expanding all the energy in a deer May or may not kill it depending on your shot placement. But if I am unsure of my shot while shooting ELDms and I walk up to the area I shot the animal and don't find blood I don't know if it's dead 30 yards inside the woods line or if it's gut shot and awake looking at me from 75 yards away ready to run to the next county.


If I shoot bullets that get pass throughs and I don't find blood at the scene, I back out. Come back tomorrow and more often then not a gut shot deer is laying 50-100 yards away.

 

[MajorSpittle]

I dont have any bullets to suggest but I will suggest you do some serious combing through this website If I remember correctly it establishes something to the tune of "the only consistent predictor of lethality is size of permanent wound channel through cardio pulmonary tissue." It is extremely informative and written by a very legitimate author. I believe a balastician at Sandia national labs. My biggest take from it was that I would much prefer to send bits of bullet on lines tangential to the path of the bullet in order to reach out and find good bits than to use a bullet that makes a nice deep straight channel no matter what. (there are certainly scenarios when I would choose penetration over fragmentation but they are more the exception than the rule)

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

the ballistic studies website has some great write ups on bullet design and performance. it is a great source to cross check information from this message board. His write ups typically assess a bullets ability both to penetrate and to "reach out"

Still reading the article in the link. Lots of great information and I am learning a lot from it.

THANKS!

 

[Jud96]

I would look for a bigger cartridge for killing elk at 800 yards. The '06 and .270 will be at their max on deer at that range, let alone elk. There's not going to be one size fits all bullet that works magic at every range. The Berger's and ELDs are great, but they are soft up close. A bullet like an AccuBond is great out to a few hundred yards, but they lack the high BC to carry energy, velocity, and buck wind. Also, Partitions and AccuBonds are heavy duty and don't expand well at lower velocities. You're going to be hard pressed to find a bullet that doesn't blow up inside 200 yards and still reliably expands at 800 yards. Especially out of standard cartridges like the .270 and .30-06.

 

[MajorSpittle]

I would look for a bigger cartridge for killing elk at 800 yards. The '06 and .270 will be at their max on deer at that range, let alone elk. There's not going to be one size fits all bullet that works magic at every range. The Berger's and ELDs are great, but they are soft up close. A bullet like an AccuBond is great out to a few hundred yards, but they lack the high BC to carry energy, velocity, and buck wind. Also, Partitions and AccuBonds are heavy duty and don't expand well at lower velocities. You're going to be hard pressed to find a bullet that doesn't blow up inside 200 yards and still reliably expands at 800 yards. Especially out of standard cartridges like the .270 and .30-06.

Yeah, I doubt I would use the .270 for elk hunting at all. 800 yrds is just the farthest I would feel comfortable shooting in the mountains under ideal conditions on an elk sized target, so just looking for opinions on a round most capable for the job as I wouldn't be carrying two different bullets. My 30-06 is the biggest gun I wish to carry with the most recoil I can deal with while shooting long distances in hunting situations.

I guess part of my thought process is that with the heavy 208 ELD-M, it impacts at 2600-1800 which is only about 800fps difference in roughly 750 yards. I wouldn't really consider 2600fps an explosive speed for a 30cal round as long as the 208 ELD-M is.

For the 270 I see a definite need for a durable bullet, thinking a partition, SST, or Interbond.