Build a rifle for sheep or bears?

[Lasiter]

What I dont get out of all these Grizz and Wolf protection laws....what about Bigfoot.....the more dangerous carnivores the less chance Bigfoot has to live comfortably out there.......
Maybe somehow there needs to be a 'Destroy the Predators to save Bigfoot' law......
Then there wouldn't be a need to carry an extra weapon to protect yourself against so many damned bears...blacks or grizz...or cougars...or wolves....

6.5 Creedmore for Bigfoot.

 

[6MM06AI]

After seeing with my own eyes the multiple failures of accubonds on Alaskan game there is no way I would use one for bear country as a expected bear stopper. We have a zip lock bag with Nosler bullet failures in it. By failures I mean lack of penetration. Expand way to fast.
A couple examples. Hunter shoots a arctic grizzly 10 times with 7 mag. With 160 accubonds. Ranges from 40 yards to 80 yards.
Final fatal shot was in the throat as it stood up to look over the willows.
Skinning the bear showed the bullets had only gone in 3-4 inches and stopped. None making it to the vitals.
Another example last year moose hunter using a 300 rum and 200 grain accubonds. Shot bull 3 times. Range 75 yards. 2 shots where bad shot placement. Very far back. Those 2 were pass through shots.
The 3rd shot hit square in the front shoulder. Bull goes down but is still alive. We approach the bull carefully to get a lethal shot in it. At 10 yards hunter shoots bull in the base of the neck. Bull finally dies. Dressing the bull out reveals that the shoulder shot completely fragmented the bullet. Penetration was nowhere near being fatal. The neck shot showed the bullet only going 3 inches in and stopping.

There are many more examples like this. When hunters ask what bullet to shoot Nosler is not one of those

Thats good to know! I had heard the partitions failed but have always heard good things about the accubonds, but that was mostly on elk. It's hard to beat a barnes i think. Thanks for the enlightenment!

 

[RH300UM]

Thats good to know! I had heard the partitions failed but have always heard good things about the accubonds, but that was mostly on elk. It's hard to beat a barnes i think. Thanks for the enlightenment!

Hammer bullet is my bullet of choice for Alaska!

 

[Frog4aday]

Thats good to know! I had heard the partitions failed but have always heard good things about the accubonds, but that was mostly on elk. It's hard to beat a barnes i think. Thanks for the enlightenment!

Wait...WHAT?! I have never have heard of a PARTITION failing. What's to 'fail'? The front end is essentially sacrificial. If the lead core at the front remains after traversing an animal, then great. If not, so what? That's why the partition and lead core in the back is there. You get EXPANSION and PENETRATION. I suppose if you shot a rabbit with a 250 grain partition in .338 WM, it might not expand in that case...and yet I'm sure the shot would still be 'successful'.

I do find it intriguing that the Accubonds failed to penetrate. But they don't have quite the time or track record as the Partitions, so I suppose we are learning what they can (or can't) do. And - as you said 6mm06AI - you can't really go wrong with a Barnes TSX/TTSX. I've read many positive things on this board about the HAMMER bullets, too.

 

[RH300UM]

Wait...WHAT?! I have never have heard of a PARTITION failing. What's to 'fail'? The front end is essentially sacrificial. If the lead core at the front remains after traversing an animal, then great. If not, so what? That's why the partition and lead core in the back is there. You get EXPANSION and PENETRATION. I suppose if you shot a rabbit with a 250 grain partition in .338 WM, it might not expand in that case...and yet I'm sure the shot would still be 'successful'.

I do find it intriguing that the Accubonds failed to penetrate. But they don't have quite the time or track record as the Partitions, so I suppose we are learning what they can (or can't) do. And - as you said 6mm06AI - you can't really go wrong with a Barnes TSX/TTSX. I've read many positive things on this board about the HAMMER bullets, too.

I consider fragmentation of a bullet and little penetration a failure.
Yes a partition failed on a moose shoulder at 70 yards. Hit the shoulder and blew apart giving no penetration into the vitals. 2 more shots as the moose was quartering away found their way to the vitals.
Wouldn't work good on a charging bear.

 

[Frog4aday]

I consider fragmentation of a bullet and little penetration a failure. Yes a partition failed on a moose shoulder at 70 yards. Hit the shoulder and blew apart giving no penetration into the vitals. 2 more shots as the moose was quartering away found their way to the vitals. Wouldn't work good on a charging bear.

Fragmentation IS a failure! Sorry things didn't work out for you on the shoulder shot. I don't suppose I'd sway you by pointing out that I shot a .308 partition through a 1.5" thick piece of bulletproof glass and - while the front half of the partition was obliterated - the rear half did go through the glass...without shattering. (it was captured in a milk jug full of water.) I know, every shot and situation is different. Just finding it hard to believe a moose shoulder is tougher than a piece of bulletproof glass. Yet, I accept your premise as you were there. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[RH300UM]

Fragmentation IS a failure! Sorry things didn't work out for you on the shoulder shot. I don't suppose I'd sway you by pointing out that I shot a .308 partition through a 1.5" thick piece of bulletproof glass and - while the front half of the partition was obliterated - the rear half did go through the glass...without shattering. (it was captured in a milk jug full of water.) I know, every shot and situation is different. Just finding it hard to believe a moose shoulder is tougher than a piece of bulletproof glass. Yet, I accept your premise as you were there. Thanks for sharing that.

It wasn't my moose. I was the packer on this hunt. Luckily the hunter kept his stuff together and made 2 great shots through the trees.
No I won't be swayed. There have been a couple other incidents where the bullet construction came into question. I wasn't a witness to those but I fully believe the ones who were there. Even more proof when they show me what's left of the bullets.
Peices. No slug from the rear portion.

 

[Lasiter]

Okay, I'm listening. If the Nosler partitions aren't as good as we were told, what makes the Barnes, etc. better? What are the construction differences.

 

[Alibiiv]

Okay, I'm listening. If the Nosler partitions aren't as good as we were told, what makes the Barnes, etc. better? What are the construction differences.

One of the most important factors is that there is on lead core with the Barnes bullets or any other monolithic bullet on the market, so they hold together better. The expansion of the bullet is controlled by the thickness of the jacket between the outside (ogive) of the bullet and the hollow point on the end. There is a forum member that you might want to PM and present your question to, he uses RockyMtnMT I believe he manufactures HAMMER bullets another line of monolithic bullets. Here is a link that you might want to check out in reference to using bullets other than Nosler partitions:

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/monolithic-bullets-hunting/

 

[memtb]

Okay, I'm listening. If the Nosler partitions aren't as good as we were told, what makes the Barnes, etc. better? What are the construction differences.

The partition was a great state of the art bullet, 30 years ago. And is "still" a very good bullet! But, as with most anything technology marches on!
Typically the partition sheds approximately 30-35% of it's weight after impact. On a high velocity impact, often the front partition jacket will fold "rather tightly" against the base...resulting in the remaining portion of the bullet not much larger in diameter than prior to impact. While the quick and explosive expansion at impact, creates a large initial wound channel, the wound channel by the remaining base, is substantially smaller! The remaining base does do a good job of deep penetration!

The Barnes TSX,TTSX, and LRX are of all copper construction. Copper, being lighter than lead, when compared to a cup and core bullet of equal weight, will make Barnes bullet longer. The Barnes bullet , has a square hollow point, which when expanded after impact....opens to form 4 rather large "very sharp" petals. These sharp petals will "slice and dice" better than a "Veg-O-Matic"! These bullets rarely ever lose a petal, even after impact with bone.....leaving a bullet (if recovered) to be near 100% of it's original weight. The high weight retention, gives excellent penetration....seldom are the Barnes Bullets recovered. Generally, they are easy to get to group well when handloaded. What's not to like....great accuracy, high weight retention giving superb penetration, and with the TTSX or LRX offering high BC's for good long range performance! Another plus, though most will not experience....when using a typical lead tipped cup and core bullet in a high recoil rifle, you get some pretty dramatic tip expansion in the rifle magazine during recoil!! Not so with the Barnes!

Well, I exhausted....gotta go take a nap! memtb

 

[D.Camilleri]

I have used accubonds for quite a few years, zero failures. I have recovered 180 great from my 300 rum, 50 percent weight retained. With my 338 rum at 3300 fps and 225 accubonds, many good kills. 300 great accubonds from the 338 rum at 2830 are extremely tough and if anything they penetrate too well and are my choice for up close bears

 

[bigngreen]

The only two bullets I'll run are Hammers or Bergers, I've had and seen to many Accubonds do a poor job on elk and they are one of the worst bullets I've ran for blood shot meat.
Barnes will probably never leave the end of one of my rifles pointed at heavy game again, they retain WAY to much frontal area and I e had so many stop or turn on elk OR poke through with little or no damage. Shot them for like 15 years and though it couldn't be better until I started shooting heavy for cal Berger's, won't ever go back, I've never had a Berger not make it into the vitals of an elk, even on shoulder hits I fully expected to have to back up and less meat loss than a tipped bullet.
The Hammers are ideal for a mono, the nose opens and creates large frag that shreds vitals while the shank stays small and penetrates in a straight like like a BEAST!!

 

[sp6x6]

this was near a local watering hole last spring

 

[RH300UM]

The only two bullets I'll run are Hammers or Bergers, I've had and seen to many Accubonds do a poor job on elk and they are one of the worst bullets I've ran for blood shot meat.
Barnes will probably never leave the end of one of my rifles pointed at heavy game again, they retain WAY to much frontal area and I e had so many stop or turn on elk OR poke through with little or no damage. Shot them for like 15 years and though it couldn't be better until I started shooting heavy for cal Berger's, won't ever go back, I've never had a Berger not make it into the vitals of an elk, even on shoulder hits I fully expected to have to back up and less meat loss than a tipped bullet.
The Hammers are ideal for a mono, the nose opens and creates large frag that shreds vitals while the shank stays small and penetrates in a straight like like a BEAST!!

.

With the claw hammer that Brian and Steve just released you'll be fine with your objectives. Claw hammers in the mag and pipe for the dicey stuff. Then a Hammer Hunter when the shot on s sheep is needed!
If your carrying a smaller caliber.
A 338 or375 with the hammer hunters wouldn't need a change.