Are my feelers too sensative?

RockyMtnMT

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There is an article posted here on the LRH about terminal performance of bullets.
I read the article and thought it was good. Went to the authors website and liked what I saw, so I sent him a message hoping to engage in some good conversation regarding terminal performance relative to the stability factor of a bullet. Here is the email conversation that happened. My note to him that got this response is at the bottom. The more I read his reply to my query the more it irritates me. This guy knows nothing about me or our business. The testing that we do or the principles that guide our product development. Basically everything that he seems to accuse me of are absolutely false. My final impression is that he probably has little knowledge of bullet stability and how it effects terminal performance and he compensated for his lack of knowledge with arrogance.

Hi Steve, stability is certainly an issue. Stability in flight will effect the BC and therefore drop, drift and impact velocities. Stability after impact and or expansion will effect penetration, both length and direction. Generally speaking, penetration issues can be rectified via an increase in sectional density- a key factor when for example using the Nosler Partition on larger animals. A low SD Partition can tumble and shed its rear core if it meets too much resistance. Your opinion should not come into this, only observations and experience. This is very important if you wish to move from being a general hunter to a bullet maker. In the field of technology, we can never make true progress if we decide to make a product and then try to justify its usage, rather than putting vast amounts of time into research and observation first, then creating designs accordingly. Whenever I see the word opinion in this line of research, it tells me that the person needs more time in the field.

These matters aside and in answer to your question, yes, this is something I am mindful of at all times. Your email address shows that you are a bullet maker. Unfortunately, I do not believe monolithic bullets to be the sole answer to all bullet ills as these lack the ability to transfer high energy at low impact velocities. This is a doubly important issue now that hunters are using weak low recoiling cartridges and also shooting at longer ranges. Reliable expansion is only a partial factor. Copper bullets can be immensely useful but they have their limitations. The closer we get to and below 2000fps, the more a bullet needs to shed weight in order to produce clean and fast kills with some room for (the reality of) human and rifle errors. And by weight loss, I do not mean just a few petals. The argument of less meat damage is also poor. Many factory rifles only produce 3 MOA accuracy. With additional human error, such rifles often group around 4 to 5 MOA. By the time the bullet travels 200 yards the group may be as wide as 8 to 10" when used under field conditions. If a bullet cannot shed weight and produces ' low meat damage', it has no chance of destroying nearby vitals in lieu of these errors. What I am talking about here is the reality of game hunting, not some ideal fantasy. Having worked as a guide for many years prior to becoming a teacher, it became abundantly clear that many hunters simply cannot achieve a high level of accuracy in the field at ordinary hunting ranges, whether as a result of their own limitations or the rifle. Bullet makers such as Hornady and Sierra understand this very well. These people make their bullets according to what the market needs rather than what it wants. However, they then set about marketing products so that they appear to be what hunters want. This is a very complex subject which I cannot cover in one email. I will state however that both companies (along with myself) have come full circle with their research, becoming fully self educated as they discovered errors in their own beliefs.

I also do not like the way copper bullet makers pull the environment card and use scare tactics to try and drum up business. If copper bullet makers truly believed that their bullets were the best, they would not need to do this. But instead, copper bullet makers tend to align themselves with anti groups. This has and will continue to prove disastrous both for hunters and game. It is also highly disrespectful to black powder shooters who do not want to blast plastic wadded sabots into the hills.

The nature of my reply may sound negative but perhaps it will give you some food for thought. Please do not feel the need to justify yourself.



Nathan Foster

Terminal Ballistics Research
Taranaki
New Zealand
Ph: Country 64, area 6, local 75 23552
From USA / Canada: 011 64 6 7523552
From UK: 00 64 6 7523552
From Australia: 0011 64 6 7523552
Please observe our time zone and business hours!
 

jfseaman

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becoming a teacher
Those who can't "do", teach.

Don't let this idiot get to you. New Zealand is a very small place (people wise) and that means some of those people have very small minds.

I am far more knowledgeable than "Nathan" about what he is criticizing. He has so many biases showing through his response. it is silly.
 

Barrelnut

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I don't see the original question that prompted the response either. But it is obvious Nathan doesn't care for copper bullets. LOL.

He drifted off topic quickly and attacked a marketing and manufacturing strategy, that anyone who follows your company knows you do not employ. It was unnecessary and he may have lost the chance to build a relationship with one of the more innovative copper bullet manufacturers today. He really put his foot in his mouth.

I have worked both with and for several folks from that part of the world. They seem to have a certain amount of arrogance build in at birth and one just needs to learn to look past it. They can be very knowledgeable but their delivery often sux.
 
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rfurman24

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I would not let it get to you. I will say it is very clear that he has done much more testing on terminal performance than almost all of us will ever have a chance to do. There are no game tags to contend with in NZ. He has plenty more opportunity. Having said that it does not mean he knows everything about every bullet.
 

bigngreen

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Ya, I would not let get under your skin Steve, I've opened up a lot of elk chests that were shot with copper bullets of all kinds and the wreckage I saw last year was unparalleled by any other copper bullet I've seen, have confidence in your product, it's built by shooting and hunting not writing as much as possible on the internet till someone thinks your an expert!!
 

RockyMtnMT

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Not sure why my inquiry did not show. Here it is

Query: Hello,
In my bullet testing I have noticed that stability factor of bullets is directly relative to how well a bullets terminal performance is. It is my opinion that the stability of hunting bullets is over looked to the detriment of hunters and the game that they pursue. If you have tested this I would like to know your findings.

Steve
 

Rich Coyle

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Steve,

That's a pretty straight forward question deserving an answer, not an attack. Apparently he has not "tested this". He resorted to one of my favorite supports, ignorant prejudice. How does one over come that position!
 

ShtrRdy

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Thanks for reposting the original question. It's clear that the reply you got did not answer your question but rather attacked your product even though your question said nothing of monolithic versus jacketed. Just move on in search of the answer.
 

RockyMtnMT

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Thanks for reposting the original question. It's clear that the reply you got did not answer your question but rather attacked your product even though your question said nothing of monolithic versus jacketed. Just move on in search of the answer.
I was not really looking for an answer. I wanted to compare test results. I know the results that I have from testing. Terminal performance increases as the rotational force of a bullet is increased. In other words marginal stability is a major contributor to bullet failure. Regardless of construction.

I'm just irritated by his response that was entirely uncalled for. If he did not have data on the subject he should have just kept his mouth shut. Since he did not, I could not. Just wanted to shine a light on him. Petty I know.

Steve
 

dmoon

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That was an interesting way not to answer your question, I would be irritated too.
 

Lefty7mmstw

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Some of what he says could have come out of my mouth... I am using mostly cup and core bullets, with a few bonded pills in the mix for good measure in rifles that can use them to keep some sense of bullet integrity. Do I shoot monolithic bullets, yes, but only in my [email protected] I have seen rather poor terminal results in mono bullets unless bone is hit to incapacitate, so I will not generally use them in smaller bullet diameters. I have some loaded for my 270 also, but those are mostly to ensure I also have ammo for a smaller rifle in case the anti's get lead banned. I also have some Barnes mrx loaded for my 270, as they are lead free also. I do not have the accuracy issues he mulls about, but that is more a factory ammo in marginal rifle issue, and is going away quickly (or gone) with some of the better rifle designs out there.
As to his response being a bit off topic, yes it is, but most people are using bullets that are at least sufficiently stable for accuracy. If they aren't using heavy for caliber bullets (those of us in the lr game are still the only ones going as heavy as we can in bullet weight) they really do not get anywhere near marginal stability, so they really are rather over spun. The question of bullet stability in killing becomes rather a non issue then.
It was certainly a bit negative of a response, and he as much admits it.
I wouldn't let the response get to you; put out a pill that kills well and flies true, and call it a day.
 

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