Accuracy issues - who or what is to blame?

[30BR]

There are tons of components to accuracy, aren't there?

Amen, brother.

 

[snox801]

Agreed. I do believe if your going to shoot long (+1K) a rifle must repeat 1/2 moa, and as you stated above all of those things and then some will be incorporated into said rifle. Also as stated above "wind" is our greatest enemy at distance. But everything plays a role. A good shooting rifle builds confidence. Also just my .02

I think you are correct but I'll let it slip to say .75 moa if my sd is low. Because that will play more of a factor than the small group. In fact my .375 am is no world beater when it comes to 100 yards groups but as things stretch out is single digit spread keeps groups small.
My .30 sherman is right at .5moa repeatable and I know I can and the rifle for sure can do better but with a spread of 3.4fps over 5 shots I will leave it.

 

[257 STW]

A **** poor rifle with crappy ammo, a shooter standing up shooting with no rest, in the wind, and an unknown distance.....if the animal bolts at the last second it may very well run into the bullet. And behold, that shooter will proclaim all over the internet that he made a perfect shot at 900 yards!!

Accidents can and will happen with little or no notice....

That`s the " I`d rather be lucky, than good" syndrome

 

[esshup]

I have been reading a lot of threads about guys chasing 1/4-1/2 MOA accuracy with their rifles. I know there are some legit marksman on here, but what are the chances that some of these folks just aren't 1/4-1/2 moa shooters and start blaming their equipment?

I was at my gunsmiths a few years ago (Kirby Allen, Allen Precision Shooting https://apsrifles.com/ ) and he guarantees 1/2 moa out to 1K. He said "Lets go shooting, I have a rifle that a customer sent back because he couldn't get it to shoot 1/2 moa. I need someone else than me to shoot it to see if it's the rifle or the shooter."

We went out and shot, Kirby did the handloading for it, and called the wind dope, I shot it. It was definitely the shooter and not the rifle. I signed the target, and dated it, and he sent it back to the customer with the target in the box.

I've shot a lot and I have all the basics down pat. This was shot from a portable shooting bench, bag under forearm, bag under the stock. Custom built rifle, great muzzle brake. Eyes, ear plugs and muffs.

A shooter just needs to be consistent with what they do when shooting. I know that's simplified, but that is what it takes, Same pressure on the stock by the trigger hand, same finger position, let the gun slide in the bags, get the gun to be on target in it's natural point of aim, just move your trigger finger straight back, etc., etc. I have a FN SPR in .308 (factory gun, one of the ones produced the first year it was introduced) and using factory Federal Gold Medal 168g SMK loads, it will shoot a 1/2 moa wide x 3/4 moa tall group @ 1,000 yds. It will shoot a bit tighter than that with 175g SMK handloads.

 

[RckyMtnRutt]

I always try to shoot tight groups to make sure the gun is going to be accurate in the field. The tikka i bought out of the box shot 1/2" groups with factory ammo. Once i realoaded i got down to 1/4" but i shoot of a bench and bipod for the most part. My 300wm always shoots 1/2 or better another tikka. That being said if you have good fundamentals and work on shooting you should have no problem chasing 1moa or 1/2moa at 100-200yards. Get a bunch of rounds and get comfortable shooting the gun. I usually shoot 3 shot groups but the real test is shooting 5 and 10 shot groups at 1/4-1/5 moa

 

[nealm66]

I was at my gunsmiths a few years ago (Kirby Allen, Allen Precision Shooting https://apsrifles.com/ ) and he guarantees 1/2 moa out to 1K. He said "Lets go shooting, I have a rifle that a customer sent back because he couldn't get it to shoot 1/2 moa. I need someone else than me to shoot it to see if it's the rifle or the shooter."

We went out and shot, Kirby did the handloading for it, and called the wind dope, I shot it. It was definitely the shooter and not the rifle. I signed the target, and dated it, and he sent it back to the customer with the target in the box.

I've shot a lot and I have all the basics down pat. This was shot from a portable shooting bench, bag under forearm, bag under the stock. Custom built rifle, great muzzle brake. Eyes, ear plugs and muffs.

A shooter just needs to be consistent with what they do when shooting. I know that's simplified, but that is what it takes, Same pressure on the stock by the trigger hand, same finger position, let the gun slide in the bags, get the gun to be on target in it's natural point of aim, just move your trigger finger straight back, etc., etc. I have a FN SPR in .308 (factory gun, one of the ones produced the first year it was introduced) and using factory Federal Gold Medal 168g SMK loads, it will shoot a 1/2 moa wide x 3/4 moa tall group @ 1,000 yds. It will shoot a bit tighter than that with 175g SMK handloads.

I bet that guy has a rifle that he can shoot.5 but doesn't realize it takes a minute to figure out a new rifle sometimes. Probably easier with a custom rifle like that but still a thing

 

[gohring3006]

I go for at least half inch groups or I sell the rifle or it sits in the safe. I know half inch groups don't matter much, but once i got a few rifles that are able to do it constantly, then my threshold was raised and 3/4" groups are just unacceptable.
That being said, there's a bunch of half inch rifles out there with 1" shooter/reloader owners. Reloading techniques and finding the right seating, charge and even the right bullet is required for consistency.

With that being said, there's more 1" guns than 1/2" guns out there no matter what reloading techniques are used.

 

[Rosebud]

When I was a kid, that was before Nixon was president, my dads hunting buddy raved about his custom mauser chambered in I have no clue. But it would hit a soda pop bottle at 200 yards. How Times have changed. Most factory rifles will outshoot the average hunter. Much less a so called custom gun. I'd say not ten percent of hunters are capable of hitting a deer at 500 yards.

 

[esshup]

I bet that guy has a rifle that he can shoot.5 but doesn't realize it takes a minute to figure out a new rifle sometimes. Probably easier with a custom rifle like that but still a thing

Agree with that! Kirby will give you load data that he knows that works in his rifles. All you have to do is duplicate the loads, working up from lower powder charges to compensate for different lots of powder. Because I was there on business, and drove, we loaded up a box of 20 rounds so I had a baseline to go by for my rifle.

 

[esshup]

I practice in the off season with a .22 LR that I had rebarreled to specifically shoot the 60g Aguilar Sub sonic bullets. 20 moa rail, it will shoot them from 50 to 200 yds. Great inexpensive practice to keep your wind reading skills up to date, and to reaffirm which way you have to dial the scope to get it on target. For shooting a longer distance at the range, I use the .308. Less expensive than the 7mm Allen Magnum.

 

[SFMongo]

I have been reading a lot of threads about guys chasing 1/4-1/2 MOA accuracy with their rifles. I know there are some legit marksman on here, but what are the chances that some of these folks just aren't 1/4-1/2 moa shooters and start blaming their equipment?

Well if they are shooting supported off of a bench and using a modicum of marksmanship 1/4 MOA is pretty easy IMHO.. If you reload and have a decent firearm it should be pretty easy to attain.

 

[DarryH]

back when I could actually shoot really good, I found my crosshairs to be a problem. I went to a very thin crosshairs, and had to have the right target to be able to see them. With that combo, I had a couple guns that would shoot those really small groups. I was happy with 1/2 to 3/4" groups with most other combos. All this was from a bench. In field conditions, and inch was repeatable, with some groups a bit smaller. My 1903 Springfield, made in 1918, from a bench, would do and inch many times. Seldom did over 1 1/2 inch, and that was with WWII to 1950's military ammo. Great guns CAN make great shooters. About age 50 my skills started degrading. Less shooting time due to family and job requirements, tendonitis, eyes getting worse, bad back, high blood pressure......you get it. I no longer shoot competitively, and more of my guns are bought for fun instead of the highest accuracy levels. It is fun when I do get back in the groove and get some more small groups. My latest is an Anschutz in .22 Hornet. Have not gotten around to trying it at 1000 yards yet. It might take me a year or two to figure out a way to get a ballistic chart made up, then figure how much I'd need to make the scope base and rings have the required elevation adjustment, and then load the ammo.....maybe I'll just keep it under 150 yards instead!!!!!!

 

[Bravo 4]

I have been reading a lot of threads about guys chasing 1/4-1/2 MOA accuracy with their rifles. I know there are some legit marksman on here, but what are the chances that some of these folks just aren't 1/4-1/2 moa shooters and start blaming their equipment?

The question is, are we talking about accuracy or precision? In other words the capabilities of the shooter or the rifle/ammunition?
In long range hunting you need both.

 

[GSPRunner]

The question is, are we talking about accuracy or precision? In other words the capabilities of the shooter or the rifle/ammunition?
In long range hunting you need both.
View attachment 327884

I guess thats the point of the post. I like the chart, it illustrates the point I was trying to make. I think more often than not, it is the shooter and not the rifle and ammo. Thats just my opinion - the exception would be guys who are proven exceptional marksman.