North American Fires

[RockyMtnMT]

Oh and don't forget. We can't harvest the burnt timber while it is still a viable log. No no no we need to leave the wood there so it can fall down like match sticks and then when the next fire comes it can burn really hot. Zipper heads.

Steve

 

[HARPERC]

.....For that matter 100 years ago in MT there was a giant fire that swept several states and there simply was not the population available to stop it.......Steve

That 1910 fire is reported to have burned 3 million western acres. 2017 was over 6 million acres.

Compare the effort to contain each one opens an interesting discussion.

In terms of irony they essentially shut down our wood stoves in winter due to air quality-it never got this bad in those winters.

 

[Canhunter35]

The way I see it:
We have a forest.
A. We can lumber it, create jobs and lumber, economic value there
B. We can burn it. Now here's the crazy part so bare with me. In the 80's are the lowest atmospheric co2 levels recorded, since co2 levels have increased our crops are yielding levels that people thought impossible in the 80's. Studies show around a 25% increase in production because of increased co2 levels. So basically we burn carbon sinks like forests and up our food production so there's economic value there. while old and young people with asthma are at risk the plants like it

Personally I hate wildfires. A friend who was a volunteer firefighter died fighting wildfires last year along with two other guys were severely burnt in fires right near me. Yet I still think it criminally negligent to leave fires burn putting people and livelihoods at risk.

I also want to point out how flawed the logic is about letting forests burn. Policy: we've let the forests all burn and now because there's nothing left to burn we are no longer at risk.
That's insanity.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

That 1910 fire is reported to have burned 3 million western acres. 2017 was over 6 million acres.

Compare the effort to contain each one opens an interesting discussion.

In terms of irony they essentially shut down our wood stoves in winter due to air quality-it never got this bad in those winters.

Our MT high school football teams are not able to practice outdoors. Games get cancelled. They play and practice in air conditions that can cause lung damage. We do have a choice and being forced by anti capitalist whack jobs to destroy our resources and live in dangerous conditions in the name of the environment is the wrong choice. We can manage our forests in a way that produces a productand costs less than fighting fires. Oops...managing fires.

Rich Coyle said it well. We used to have a timber industry, now we have jails, food stamps, and dope for all. These egg heads have successfully gotten rid of MT natural resource industry that would fund our schools very well, and then call for higher taxes on the people, for the children.

Steve.

 

[Hatrick]

The other thing that is tough to believe is the people that make these stupid decisions don't live anywhere near the forest.(Maybe central park)

 

[elkaholic]

I read through most of this and agree that we have reached the age of craziness! This isn't just a Forest Service problem folks, it's pervasive in every area of our country and lives. Most of the comments made are true, but are only SYMPTOMS of the real problem. We could save a lot
of time and just read (chapter 1 of the book of Romans) There are no POLITICAL solutions!! I'm old enough to remember the '50's. I've watched the changes that have taken place since then and it all revolves around ONE thing! As a
nation, we have little by little taken God out of everything, starting with our schools. Now we are seeing the consequences and we wonder how we got here. Change starts with the individual. There is a lot of knowledge floating around and very little wisdom! I'm speaking about the state of our country as a whole, and not necessarily about the people on this thread.

Sincere thanks to Kiwi for being concerned about about our well being!
(Romans 1) For those who aren't familiar, I didn't write Romans 1, so don't blame me.

 

[26Reload]

Lots of you have very valid points....but the points are lost on anyone in politics....
Fire crews used to use down time to go out and brush roads...now they sit on their *** and await a fire to be called out....somewhere..sometime...
My younger brother worked on a crew as a teenager and that is exactly what the did....
My older brother occasional gets called in to drive crews into firecamps..then work with them til their crews are sent packing...always the same.....millions of dollars going to waste on most every fire crews are sent..

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Lots of you have very valid points....but the points are lost on anyone in politics....
Fire crews used to use down time to go out and brush roads...now they sit on their *** and await a fire to be called out....somewhere..sometime...
My younger brother worked on a crew as a teenager and that is exactly what the did....
My older brother occasional gets called in to drive crews into firecamps..then work with them til their crews are sent packing...always the same.....millions of dollars going to waste on most every fire crews are sent..

No firefighting at night when humidity is up and wind is down. No fire lines cut with big equipment, so most fire lines are useless. No firefighters within 10 miles of the fire. Set fires around the fire to control where it goes. This is the biggest strategy as it burns more acreage.

Then when it goes bad our firefighters are put in danger to try and stop the out of control management fires from killing civilians that are in the way. It frankly is criminal.

Steve

 

[elkaholic]

I started fighting fires in 1970. The first one I was on burned 1/4 million acres around Lake Chelan in Wa. I nearly burned up 2 of the first 3 days I was there by pyromaniacs from region 5 (California) setting back fires behind us. Pretty scary for a flatlander from Michigan. The cat Skinner I was leading around punching holes for a fire break barely got the 2 of us out alive. When we got back to Basecamp, he looked up the boss of the back fire crew and picked him up with one hand with a handful of his shirt and pinned him against a tree so he could get him at eye level and have a chat with him! This guy was about 6'4" and probably weighed around 230. ZERO FAT!
He got the msg accross pretty well!

 

[Riflehunter1776]

Here in NZ during the summer it is not uncommon to have districts that have Total Fire Bans and yet every year we have idiots that think it is OK to burn their rubbish in their back yard. For the last few years these total fire ban areas are listed at the end of the weather forecast on the National TV channel every night so it is not as if the information isn't out there.

Don't you have a lot of Gorse in NZ? I hear that stuff burns like a match.

 

[HARPERC]

....Sincere thanks to Kiwi for being concerned about about our well being!...(Romans 1) For those who aren't familiar, I didn't write Romans 1, so don't blame me.

I've been wondering if kiwi was prepared for the hornets nest he kicked with his kind concern.

I had to reread Romans 1, but not much disagreement there.

Looking at how far our inner cities have fallen in just my lifetime is believable only as I've seen it. Incredible anyone can look at them, and not see a problem.

Few listening doesn't relieve us of speaking truth to power, and praying their eyes, and ears be opened. Just read it appears Zinke has been looking and listening. What will change remains to be seen.

 

[kiwikid]

Riflehunter 1776, Yes indeed we do have gorse which our not so bright forefathers introduced. It is classified as a noxious weed and most farmers spray it. Once it is dead it burns with incredible heat but luckily it only grows to a height of around 10 ft. Occasionally we do have scrub fires on public land that can get fairly large but they are a pocket handkerchief compared to the fires in the USA and Canada.

 

[kiwikid]

HARPERC, To be honest I had no idea that what started as a message of concern would be read by so many and as you put it stir up such a hornets nest. I have read every post with interest and it appears that just like here in NZ the people that make decisions are too easily guided or persuaded by others that appear to have a hidden agenda. When I watch the news and see huge jet aircraft dumping water on the fires I can't help but wonder who is paying for it and is someone getting rich in the process. All the houses that have been destroyed that I guess insurance companies will pay to have rebuilt. In a perfect world all that money would be spent on reducing the risk, forming fire lines, planting alfalfa along the roadsides so there is a green belt. And to hell with the conservationists!

 

[WildRose]

I am no expert, but I have a hard time believing that we created thick forests inside of 100 years. I have been in a lot of old growth timber that I am pretty sure has not been subject to large scale fire. The amount of acreage that we have that is forested so big that I think it would be tough to burn all of it inside of 100 years. For that matter 100 years ago in MT there was a giant fire that swept several states and there simply was not the population available to stop it. I think we have been letting it burn now since the late 80's, so really only half of the last 100 years were we trying to put out the fires. It simply is not logical.

Same idiots that think we must suffer through the "man made forest fire problem", in a level of pollution that is far worse than anything that we cause from the industrial revolution, think we should limit the amount of driving we do for the sake of the environment. Burning our forests and purchasing lumber from Canada is just plain stupid! All our lumber mills are gone, we couldn't process our own lumber if we wanted to. There is nothing "environmental" about burning our forest. It is anti industry/capitalism. People that have bought into the idea that burning our forests is the best way to keep them "healthy" are useful idiots.

As far as temp goes, it's been hot before it is not a new thing. I wonder if all the co2 that we are putting into the atmosphere by saving our forest by burning them, is causing "global warming"? I'm surprised that we were able to make it through the prolonged period of not letting our forests burn and the resulting lack of co2 going into the atmosphere.

I'll stop now before I thoroughly **** off half the people.

Steve

Depends on what part of the country you live in Steve. Some environments really need frequent fires to be healthy. In pine forests they only way the minerals pulled out by the trees and sub growth to get back into the soil is letting them burn occasionally.

In brush country it's not a matter of it it will burn, it's just a matter of how much fuel will build up before it does.

Most of what's going on now is a matter of mismanaged lands where they restrict land use to the point that no one can do anything to control that scrub and under story growth so when it gets hot and dry and starts to burn it all but explodes.

The state and national forest services absolutely need to star building and maintaining a grid of firebreaks. Back when we had wide spread commercial logging the lumber companies took care of that building roads all through the forests and clear cutting areas that then became great firebreaks.

Once the einvironuts got control of the various forest and conservation services common sense management became a thing of the past. By attempting to preserve rather than conserve our forests they are dooming them.