Which cartridge for lrh for 1000yd.

b8541lp

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If you want a good balance between barrel life and accuracy, I've had excellent results with the 280 Ackley Improved and 180 grain Berger bullets. Its an extremely accurate cartrige and easy to load for. Berger recommends impact velocities of 1800 fps or better for proper bullet performance and you should be able to maintain that to at least 900 yards.

Brian Poor
Premier Rifle Academy
 

backwoods83

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To answer the question about the 195grn 7mm berger, length is 1.627" so given its dimentions, Bryan Lizt recommends a stability factor of 1.4 but anything over 1.0 is considered stabil, so this bullet at 2850+fps from a 9 twist with anything above 800ft altitude, 50% humidity, and 40 dgrees it should do just fine, stability factor should fall right between 1.3 and 1.4
 

angus-5024

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I think WildRose is thinking a 195grain .30cal. That would make sense to user a 1-11.

Jordan Smith,
I agree that the 7mm bullet can do it at 1k, as my numbers showed. Its just that they are right at the bottom of the bucket kinda thing. I do realize that TOF flight is comparable, but with the larger calibers there is a little more room for error (that being said, not enough to make up for a poor shot). Barrel life in the 7 rem isnt great either. One reason I would go to the 7mm is for a lighter rifle for packing or if recoil was an issue.

I have a .280 Rem and love it, so no hate on .284 dia bullets. I just feel that there are better choices for the OP's goal.
 

yobuck

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so what happens if your lucky enough to get your 1000 yd elk and you decide
you want to try for 1200?
does this question and answer thing start all over again?
or better yet what happens if your sought after elk turns up at 1200?
i think you should forget any preconceived opinions and reread what broz said.
most serious long range hunters i know are moving away from the smaller
calibers.
that includes deer hunters as well.
 

Jordan Smith

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It's ridiculous to think that a bull elk will fall dead to a 180gr VLD from a 7Mag at 1000 yards, but the bullet will bounce off and the elk will laugh at 1200 yards. A 7RUM launching a 195gr EOL will stay above the 1800fps expansion threshold for a long ways...

The .338" bullets and launching platforms are excellent performers at extended range, for sure. I'm just trying to point out that they are not the only players on the field that can get the job done, which seems to be a commonly implied sentiment around here ;)
 

barnesuser28

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for hunting deer and antelope at long range i would recommend a straight 284 winchester but since you want to hunt elk i would go with a 338 of some sort.
 

Bob Beck

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Interesting thread!

I will do my best to stay out of the way here, and see if I may be able to lend some thoughts that may help out?

I am thinking there are a few ways to think of this? One is energy at target, retained velocity, and lastly forgiveness. We all know the big 338's deliver the energy at target and most of the time are the best bucking the wind. However in this conversation there may be somewhat different factors? Now assuming the 195 EOL/Berger Heavy Hybrid is a success? I need to mention that the performance is still unknown for some time still until I can put it through the ringer, but from the information that we have currently, with the form factor is .850 and is about the slickest bullet on the planet! To my point, that out of our 7mm Ultra with our throat design, we can get 3150 fps out of the 195. When you carry that speed with a B.C. of .794 it just falls short on energy to a .338 at 2750 fps by 275 ft lbs at 1000 yards. The 338 at 2163 ft lbs, and the 7mm at 1888 ft lbs. Now the real interesting factors! The 7mm speed is over 66% of its original velocity at 2089 fps. The .338 is only at 65% at 1802 fps. Now that does not seem like much difference, but by percentages this is huge considering the weight difference is what got the .338 to the B.C. of .818. So the fact that the 7mm 195 grain at .794 has a higher percentage of retained velocity and is 105 grains less weight is impressive to say the least! Also looking at the criteria of this conversation, using the 1800 fps mark as acceptable speed for bullet performance, look at the velocities of the two! Now my last interesting point, given a full 10 mph wind value all the way out to 1000 yards, the 7mm out performs the .338 by 3/4 MOA. This surely makes you wonder about forgiveness???
 

Jordan Smith

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Interesting thread!

I will do my best to stay out of the way here, and see if I may be able to lend some thoughts that may help out?

I am thinking there are a few ways to think of this? One is energy at target, retained velocity, and lastly forgiveness. We all know the big 338's deliver the energy at target and most of the time are the best bucking the wind. However in this conversation there may be somewhat different factors? Now assuming the 195 EOL/Berger Heavy Hybrid is a success? I need to mention that the performance is still unknown for some time still until I can put it through the ringer, but from the information that we have currently, with the form factor is .850 and is about the slickest bullet on the planet! To my point, that out of our 7mm Ultra with our throat design, we can get 3150 fps out of the 195. When you carry that speed with a B.C. of .794 it just falls short on energy to a .338 at 2750 fps by 275 ft lbs at 1000 yards. The 338 at 2163 ft lbs, and the 7mm at 1888 ft lbs. Now the real interesting factors! The 7mm speed is over 66% of its original velocity at 2089 fps. The .338 is only at 65% at 1802 fps. Now that does not seem like much difference, but by percentages this is huge considering the weight difference is what got the .338 to the B.C. of .818. So the fact that the 7mm 195 grain at .794 has a higher percentage of retained velocity and is 105 grains less weight is impressive to say the least! Also looking at the criteria of this conversation, using the 1800 fps mark as acceptable speed for bullet performance, look at the velocities of the two! Now my last interesting point, given a full 10 mph wind value all the way out to 1000 yards, the 7mm out performs the .338 by 3/4 MOA. This surely makes you wonder about forgiveness???

Excellent post. The big .338's are super-stars, but there are other excellent players on the court gun)
 

pupeperson

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Another thought, even though it's not a hot-rod by today's standards, is a plain old .338 WinMag. According to the Gun Data ballistics calculator, a 225 grain Nosler Accubond (Ballistics Coefficient .551) launched at 2800 fps at 4000 ft altitude would retain a velocity of 1567 fps with retained energy of 1227 ft lbs @ 1000 yards. Time of flight = 1.437 seconds.

A hit in the vitals on an elk at that range with that bullet would quickly be lethal. At the same time, a hit in the hams with a 50 BMG at the same range would probably require some tracking unless it struck bone on entry and exit, breaking the animal down.

For a one gun guy, the described cartridge would be more than adequate in most circumstances on animals large and small at ranges from point blank to 1000 yards or perhaps farther on smaller critters like deer or antelope, again assuming a hit in a vital spot. 1200 yd values are 1381 fps and 953 lbs ft.

Another plus for this cartridge / bullet combination is that these components are readily availble in most places and even factory loads of Federal Premium 338 A1 may still be available. I have several boxes of these factory loaded cartidges on my shelf as I write this...

This certainly isn't the hottest or newest thing available, but barrel life is generally good and it's on the upper end of all-around cartridges. Unless you're planning on an African hunt, i don't think you'd be under-gunned for anything in N. America nor grotesquely over-gunned either. For big bears, I'd probably opt for a 250 or 275 grain bullet for their heavier jackets and greater penetration but doubt you'd be firing at them at 1000 yards anyway.

Tim Abbott
Silver Springs, NV
 

winmag

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The .338" bullets and launching platforms are excellent performers at extended range, for sure. I'm just trying to point out that they are not the only players on the field that can get the job done, which seems to be a commonly implied sentiment around here ;)


There's a reason for that when your talking Elk, & 1k. More momentum than lil 7mm bullets is a great place to start. Especially with Elk in the picture. When you run out of paper for crunching numbers, & stats, & actual bullets hit bone, the heavier bullet will continue to push thru, when the little ones run out of steam (momentum). Calculating 1500 ft lbs & 1800-2000 fps expansion window only gets you so far. It's what happens after impact that makes folks love the 338. Barrel life is another for practice/proficiency at 1k.
Plus, with the CURRENT offerings available (that I'm aware of -i.e. no 195 on the market quite yet) the 230 300 beats the 7mm no contest. Now introduce the big 338mags & they Trump the 300's, so ya.... There's a lot of that around here.
Ya the numbers are great for your 195 7mm. No one can argue that. It's gonna be the latest greatest for the 7mm guys. (When will it even be available by the way? & Is it proven yet?) But honestly the Only thing a 7mm will do better than a big 338 is less recoil. But they make very effective muzzle brakes for that, so I guess that's a push. Ya.... Personally, I'll take big guns for LR Elk any day over one the just gets me by. More lugg nuts wins the wreck.
Balistically, & on paper, the 7mm looks sweet. But sorry man, I just don't drink the 7mm koolaid for 1k Elk. I know the numbers are there, but so is a 223 60 gr partition to a certain velocity, & yardage. That doesn't make it a great Elk round to the end of its effective range does it? Sure it'll work, the numbers are there, but its not my opinion that numbers mean everything.

P.S. to the O.P. my vote mirrors shortpants, & Broz. A 300 mag of one kind or another for an all purpose rifle, & step up to a big 338 if its mostly 1k & beyond work.

Oddly enough, I just a had a Long Action 300WSM built for this exact purpose.:D but I plan on limiting my range to 850 or less on Elk because of the bullet I plan to use (personal choice). If I wanted to go the full 1k on Elk, I'd use the Berger, but then again if I wanted to go the full 1k , I'd build a big 338gun)
 
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angus-5024

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Interesting thread!

I will do my best to stay out of the way here, and see if I may be able to lend some thoughts that may help out?

I am thinking there are a few ways to think of this? One is energy at target, retained velocity, and lastly forgiveness. We all know the big 338's deliver the energy at target and most of the time are the best bucking the wind. However in this conversation there may be somewhat different factors? Now assuming the 195 EOL/Berger Heavy Hybrid is a success? I need to mention that the performance is still unknown for some time still until I can put it through the ringer, but from the information that we have currently, with the form factor is .850 and is about the slickest bullet on the planet! To my point, that out of our 7mm Ultra with our throat design, we can get 3150 fps out of the 195. When you carry that speed with a B.C. of .794 it just falls short on energy to a .338 at 2750 fps by 275 ft lbs at 1000 yards. The 338 at 2163 ft lbs, and the 7mm at 1888 ft lbs. Now the real interesting factors! The 7mm speed is over 66% of its original velocity at 2089 fps. The .338 is only at 65% at 1802 fps. Now that does not seem like much difference, but by percentages this is huge considering the weight difference is what got the .338 to the B.C. of .818. So the fact that the 7mm 195 grain at .794 has a higher percentage of retained velocity and is 105 grains less weight is impressive to say the least! Also looking at the criteria of this conversation, using the 1800 fps mark as acceptable speed for bullet performance, look at the velocities of the two! Now my last interesting point, given a full 10 mph wind value all the way out to 1000 yards, the 7mm out performs the .338 by 3/4 MOA. This surely makes you wonder about forgiveness???


Winmag kinda beat me to the point.

Remember the newest greates from Berger a few years ago that was supposed to break .9? It came down to .818 when it was tested, Im refering to the .338 OTM of course. Great bullet, and kudos to berger for developing it, but I suspect that the 7mm 195grain will follow suit (not to say that it wont be a great bullet).

7RUMs dont compare to a .338 Lapua or RUM, they have 600-700 rounds barrel life and are a very speacialized platform. IMO cool but very impractical, unless you really enjoy changing tubes.

lets bring out a Lapua Imp., Wby, Kahn or Lazz and see how ANY .284 dia chambering stacks up.

ELK @ 1K = .338... but thats if you want the best choice. 7's are ok too.
 

Jordan Smith

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There's a reason for that when your talking Elk, & 1k. More momentum than lil 7mm bullets is a great place to start. Especially with Elk in the picture. Barrel life is another for practice/proficiency at 1k.
Plus, with the CURRENT offerings available the 230 300 beats the 7mm no contest. Now introduce the big 338mags & they Trump the 300's, so ya.... There's a lot of that around here.
Ya the numbers are great for your 195 7mm. No one can argue that. It's gonna be the latest greatest for the 7mm guys. (is it even available yet by the way? Is it proven yet?) But honestly the Only thing a 7mm will do better than a big 338 is less recoil. But they make very effective muzzle brakes for that, so I guess that's a push. Ya.... I'll take big guns for LR Elk any day over one the just gets me by. More lugg nuts wins the wreck.
Balistically, & on paper, the 7mm looks sweet. But sorry man, I just don't drink the 7mm koolaid for 1k Elk.

That's cool. Nobody's trying to sell you on the idea of the 7mm for elk at 1k. Different strokes for different folks, but the 7mm gets the job done at 1k, believe it or not. With a name like "winmag", I wouldn't expect you to be a 7mm guy ;)

You talk about barrel life being a concern between the 7mm and .338 chamberings, yet you make no mention of the significant cost increase in ammo for the .338's compared to the 7mm's. By the time you've burned out that 7mm barrel, you've saved enough cash in ammo, compared to something like the .338LM, to pay for a rebarrel on the 7mm!

You also say that the .300's currently beat the 7mm's, no contest, but I would respectfully beg to differ. Matrix makes a 190gr VLD in 7mm with a static BC of 0.807, Berger makes a 180gr Hybrid with a G1 BC of 0.674. The 7RM, for example, can launch a 180gr bullet at about 3000-3050fps. You can also launch a 0.625 G1 BC 162gr A-Max from the 7RM at 3100-3150fps. In order to match that BC, the .300 would need to launch at least a 210-215gr bullet, and a .300 with roughly equal case capacity, like the .300WM, would not be able to push the 210gr bullet fast enough to equal the 3100-3150fps that the 7RM gets with the 162. You need to run a 300 RUM in order to match the ballistics of a 7RM. The new 195 EOL is going to be an excellent bullet, I'm sure, but it's not the only kid on the block when it comes to excellent LR bullets in 7mm.

It's also cheating a little bit to include a brand new 230gr bullet in .308, but exclude the 195gr bullet that's coming out in 7mm in the next couple of months to match the new .308" and .338" offerings.

A lot of this is really just ballistic masturbation, but it gives us something to talk about until the next hunting season opens. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take a cannon to kill elk, moose, or bears. Put a bullet that weighs 160gr+ (and smaller bullets even work, too!) in the chest or shoulder of any of these animals at 1800fps or more, and the critter is going to have a bad, albeit short, day.

Just a little food for thought:







I could go on and on with the videos of elk being killed with cartridges smaller than, or equal to 7mm out to 1000+ yards, but I'll stop there. My point is that .338" bullets are fantastic, and are, in general, ballistically superior to 7mm bullets, but how much is enough to get the job done at 1000 yards? The .375 Chey Tac is superior to the .338 platforms, so should we all sell our .338's and buy Chey Tac's, or maybe .375 AM rifles? I know that .338's work, and I'm very happy for anyone who uses one and enjoys it, but there are other bullets that carry their velocity very efficiently out to extended ranges, and kill very reliably, as well.
 
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