What is the best scope on the market PERIOD?

[elkaholic]

S&B IMHO the PMll 5X25X56 is the best scope opticaly that I have ever used and the adjustments are precise and constantly repeatable. The NSX is repatable and reliable, just a notch behind S&B opticaly

Looks like my kinda shootin hole!.....Rich

 

[JRu]

The Hensoldt does not have a zero stop turret or a turn indicator

I think the turn is indicated well enough. Also, having only two full turns and plenty of elevation per turn, IME this is a non-issue. The turret will not go much below zero anyway if you have a 20MOA+ base.

Also if you want to have definite zero stop and a single turn turret ( and are willing to live with the limitation of 12 mils = 41 MOA of total elevation ) , you can pin the elevation turret in the same way the windage turret is pinned. The mechanism is already there, there just is no pin on the elevation turret when you purchase a Hensoldt.

Also notice the "extra knob" in the middle, it is for adjusting the height of the turret so the turn indicator line will be revealed at the right moment ( instead of e.g. being off half a turn if you have zeroed the turret half a turn between the lines ).

Needless to say I'm a fan of Hensoldts. Besides, I like their physical dimensions better than the Benders. Not a fair comparison but remember the 4-16x S&B is almost as long as the 5-25x pictured below, next to a 3-12 ( which is only a 1/2" shorter than 4-16x Hensoldt ) :

But, as always, YMMV. I just didn't become a fan of the Bender mostly due to its actual minimum magnification being somewhere around 7,5x ( any smaller than that, the FOV doesn't widen, you only get a dark shadow ) and the big size combined with the fact that I don't shoot any better with 25x than what I do with 12x, given equal size and shape targets.

 

[bozo699]

S&B IMHO the PMll 5X25X56 is the best scope opticaly that I have ever used and the adjustments are precise and constantly repeatable. The NSX is repatable and reliable, just a notch behind S&B opticaly

Hope you guy's are right because 5-25x56 pmII should be here TODAY or tomorrow C.O.D didn't think anybody did C.O,D any more.anyway all smiles can't wait

 

[joshua99ta]

yeah i think the hensoldt is going on my next rifle(of coarse it won't be REALLY soon... I don't have $3K to spend on it just yet... but it wont be long!)

 

[älg]

The problem with the Hensoldt is the reticle. Unless I am wrong, they only offer a conventional mil dot, and the subtenssion of he crosshairs might be too wide for LR shooting at small targets, at least ion the higher power factors.

 

[JRu]

Yes only mildot for now. But then it IS the choice of many military professionals and I must say I'm not too fond of the busier crosshair types myself. Hensoldt line thickness is 0.05 mrad ( roughly 1/6 MOA ) . Dots are 0.2 mrad IIRC.

For accurate long range optical rangefinding, I'm highly skeptical of the usefulness of ANY rifle scope reticle. I've ranged ( in sniper competitions where LRFs are prohibited ) with S&B, Nightforce, IOR and Leupold reticles, up to 1K+. At high magnification ( such as with TMR reticle equipped Leupold 12-40x spotter) mirage will make accurate range estimation difficult and with 25x magnification or lower such as with S&B or Nightforce, it is simply too difficult to eyeball anything at the required sub-0.05 mrad precision.

S&B P4/P4F are good reticles except for the middle part design. Whoever decided to make the center crosshair "something more than 0.5 but less than 1.0 mrad" and skip the 0.5 mrad lines altogether, obviously had no experience in making quick corrections to near misses at long range.

IMO the Gen2 mildot reticle is by far the best, bar none. Too bad it is owned by Premier Reticles, whose scope design I'm not a fan of but I can see the appeal to the tactical crowd.

 

[älg]

Jru, you are fully right on this.The centre crosshair in the P4f is a strange thing, measuring ¿unlkess i am wrong? 0,85 mil. A normal half mil mark would have been far better.

Also agree it is very dificult to range using the reticle, although here I must say that the little 0.2 mil marks in the sides or top of the p4f are useful at least to measure the size of the target if the distance is known...

If the reticle is used for holdover, dont you find the dot may be a little too thick some times?
Thanks for the info.

 

[JRu]

If the reticle is used for holdover, dont you find the dot may be a little too thick some times?

Can't say that I have ever found a FFP mildot reticle to be too large. At its thickest point, the mil-dot is 0.2 mrad = 20 cm @ 1000 m or 8" @ 1100yd and I've never shot at a target as small or smaller than that, nor do I realistically see the need to. If I can see at least a part of the target behind the reticle or dot, I can aim at it. "Aim small, hit small" doesn't mean you need to have a hair thin reticle and large magnification. It means you're more accurate on a well defined, small aiming point for a target. Just try to group accurately at 40x when your target is a large grey blob and you can't see your impacts. Now try the same, but on a black diamond shape on white background, with mere 10x of magnification. I will guarantee you the latter will be easier.

In my use the dots are only to give a rough estimate of impact anyway. As in, whether the round was 0.3 or 0.7 mrad off ==> I can make reasonably accurate corrections quickly. Anything requiring more precision, I'm twisting the turrets.

Naturally, YMMV, but this is my personal experience. The only thing in my opinion a mildot reticle is lacking is those 0.5 mrad hash marks.

 

[Jerry Cunningham]

This has been a great thread and anyone should gain from it. Thanks to the internet so many knowledgable people can share their experiences. If I understood the original question he asked for the best scope period and later I think he said he was interested in the best glass. I would think that optical resolution charts should determine what glass can "resolve" the smallest pattern. I have never heard of anyone running such a test on the top five or six brands that are truly in the running. Opinions are certainly worthy of respect but nothing replaces science. Subjective opinions of what one likes best are simply personal preferences. Very little more. I do agree with the gentleman who noted that specific scopes from the same maker are often different. I was a manufacturer of rifle barrels for most of my adult life. No matter how hard one tried some barrels simply shot better than others. Exactly why is still a mystery. Even with very tight manufacturing tolerances and very tight raw materials specs the end product still varied from one to another. Therefore buying a "name" is not the same as having the best scope. Another gentleman pointed out that a certain optic just feels right. There is something that "clicks" between the product and the user. I know as a machinist that I have certain instruments that I would not trade for an identical model made by the same maker even if extra cash was added. I connect with that specific tool.
Since the top brands have different features one is not truly comparing apples to apples. The features become the selling point not specifically the brand name. I think the specific application is paramount as to scope selection. I have a good friend who makes rifles for African use on dangerous game. He feels that how well a scope holds together and still does its job is the heart of the issue. The glass in and of itself means little if the whole unit fails under recoil and/or demanding field use. He feels that none of the top scopes are strong enough for his use. However, he does speak highly of Nightforce. I agree with that viewpoint. Reliability of what the scope is designed to do is my most important issue. If any part of the scope fails me in any way then it must be replaced and it will probably be replaced with a different brand. I always suggest spending the most money you can on a riflescope that is built for the job that you intend. If you buy less than the one you really want than you will always regret the purchase in the long run. Save your money for whatever time it takes and then buy once from a company that gives a top warrenty and gives good service. I would not buy from a company that is so small that it might not be in business for the next ten years.
Unless one can quantify what one means by the "best" and agrees upon the methods that would determine what is the "best" nothing serious can happen. Measurable evidence obtained by objective people in a controlled setting is the first step. The second step is for other objective people to verify the same results. This is the only system that counts for me. Mankind placed a man on the moon through the use of scientific method. Opinion is respected but never trusted to yield any truth. The laws of optics, ballistics, and mathematics are well understood. However, these hard won tools are seldom used in general discussion. The person who start this thread mentioned that he bought a S&B rifle scope. It is a wonderful scope and I am sure he will be happy.
Jerry Cunningham

 

[djtjr]

Nightforce

 

[jwp475]

Nightforce

What makes a Nightforce better than a S&B?

 

[jwp475]

Nightforce

A Nightforce scope (Ihave owned 5 of them) is a very reliable, rugged and precise in its adjustments, but so is a S&B. Both scopes weigh about the same and the S&B has better resolution and optical clarity
I ask again, how did you determine that a Nightforce is the best scope?

Yes I also own S&B scopes and I am talking about like scopes, the PMll S&B VS the NXS or Benchrest models of Nightforce of the same basic power range

 

[klee]

Once I bought a cheap rifle and cheap scope (brands shall remain nameless) and after a couple a hundred rounds I sold both. On the advice of a respected hunting friend I bought a Browning A-bolt 7mm rem mag on sale and on the advice of the salesperson I put a fixed 6x Burris on it. Sighted it in at 1 1/2 inch high at 100 yds with a fantastic performing handload. Since then that scope has been crashed, bashed and tortured through very rough hunting and truck riding. Every year I would check it with 1-3 rounds before hunting and every year for nearly 20 years it hits exactly 1 1/2 inches high dead center at 100 yds. I have put down a dozen elk with it making shots from 627 yds(google earthed the yardage) to a 90 yard shot on the neck of a fantastic bull at a dead run and every shot imaginable in between. I'm not bragging it's just that I have complete confidence of when the cross hairs are where I want them I squeeze-end of story. Even with a beautiful Ruger M-77 and great leopold 3x9 I use to own, I didn't have that much confidence nor did I ever make make such fine shots. Recently I retired that Burris for a new Premier Heritage 3-15X50. I have yet to mount it (waiting on the scope rings and picatinny base). I can only hope that I can perform at the same level shooting that I have grown used to, I'm sure the scope will be up to it but will the marriage of gun-scope-and shooter be made in heaven? We will see. Moral of the story - confidence over doubt wins everytime when you squeeze. If you love your set up you will put down more game.
I hope the S&B works very well for you, they are really nice scopes.

Klee

 

[MontanaRifleman]

A Nightforce scope (Ihave owned 5 of them) is a very reliable, rugged and precise in its adjustments, but so is a S&B. Both scopes weigh about the same and the S&B has better resolution and optical clarity
I ask again, how did you determine that a Nightforce is the best scope?

Yes I also own S&B scopes and I am talking about like scopes, the PMll S&B VS the NXS or Benchrest models of Nightforce of the same basic power range

JWP, not trying to get in a ****ing contest here, would just like to know if you think an S&B is made as tough and rugged as a NF, and if so, why? Will an S&B stand up to the same level of G forces for the same amount of time? Will it stand up to temp extremes as well? Will it stand up to mud dirt and sand as well? On clarity and resolution, have ever actually tested it? I can see 30 cal bullet holes with my NXS set on 22x @ 427 yds. Have you done a similar side by side test with the NXS's and S&B? I think that would be interesting. How far can you actually see a 30 cal or 338 cal bullet hole with each scope? Then do the same test 30 min after sunset.

I would really like to see the different scopes campared side by side with clear cut objective tests of ruggedness, clarity, light gathering etc.

-Mark