Field and Stream

[7magcreedmoor]

And that's what's surprising about this video. Has anyone asked Aaron why he posted the video with his company taking the lead on manufacturing a product that is marketed to "calculate your ballistic solution for any shooting condition."

The first shot missed by a significant margin.

Why did Aaron post this video?

You can shoot the messenger of the questions all you want. I believe they are fair questions for a manufacturer marketing a product as the smartest rangefinder in the world!

I have been watching the Davidsons since their involvement with Best of the West. Why did he publish the miss? Honesty. Nobody worth their salt ever shoots with the intention to miss, but it will happen from time to time. The important thing is to learn from each miss, as well as from each hit.

 

[bigngreen]

I won't even comment on the shot beyond that I found it extremely LAME to use a young hunters hunt to start a debate!!!

Now, I think instead of burying our heads in the sand or calling people idiots it would benefit us as hunters to put up articles to be published and to calmly engage these people, there is definitely a push being made so maybe we better pull our own heads out of our south ends and stop hiding behind the "no ethics" or "it's legal, screw of" mentality because it's is abundantly clear that has put us in a poor position!!http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Broz]

there is definitely a push being made so maybe we better pull our own heads out of our south ends and stop hiding behind the "no ethics" or "it's legal, screw of" mentality because it's is abundantly clear that has put us in a poor position!!

I am in full agreement with this. The LRH community has worked hard for years, honing and tuning a set of ethics and morals more honorable that I personally have ever seen held by any other group of hunters. That is something to be proud of. The uneducated misconception from the "I don't do it that way so I don't like it" crowd, that we are just taking pot shots at distance needs to be educated. It is time we make them fully aware of the effort we put forth to insure accuracy and shooting skill is impeccable. Not only with our take of game at well over 500 yards, but also that the take of game at 100 yards is done with precision that no group of hunters this large as a whole have ever progressed to. Never before has there been a group of hunters that better understood what "My effective range" means. Taking game properly at distance has produced better skills that have proved to produce more well placed bullets and one shot humane takes of game than ever before. Only those that don't truly know would deny this. Or those who choose to down play precision hunting at distance because they feel some sort of threat from it to their personal chosen methods of take. Then there will also be the group of authors that will do whatever for controversy to attract reader count. What ever happened to the days when an author was held to a level of professionalism where he was required to gather an unbiased statement of facts from both sides of an issue?? A lost art for sure I say.

I have read and reread the article in mention. It is poorly written and the thought of " an occasional long range shot is ok" just shows the author is either uneducated in what it takes to execute a precision shot at distance. Or he is trying to hold his group of old school together by condoning the "I held 14" over his back and hit him" club of yesteryears.

We do indeed need to bring forth our skill set and what it is truly like to produce precision well placed shots for the take of game at distance. Also how the game animal suffers less as it and the rest of the herd is not terrified by the percussion of a magnum rifle shot inside 100 yards like a bomb going off in your own home when you least expect it.

Jeff

 

[MMERSS]

BINGO bigngreen and Jeff

The important thing is to learn from each miss, as well as from each hit.

I couldn't agree more. The general public and quite frankly many hunters fail to recognize range, per se, doesn't cause one to miss. This would be evident should a laser be properly aligned with an optic. A properly released laser "shot" centered on a target most certainly will produce a center hit regardless of range and environmental conditions. One could argue range, by virtue of increased distance, amplifies the ballistics and weather inconsistencies and miscalculations. Therefore, wouldn't range only without including confidence levels or environmental and hunting conditions be viewed as rather useless for education and of little value to the public? Due to the current anti-long range atmosphere now would be a great opportunity for the maximum effective range community, to include those in the manufacturing and TV enterprise, to spend more time educating the public and each other rather than focusing on range only hunts. More TV time can be used to explain effective range and those condition limits during their hunt. Just an observation based on comments and perception coming from some of the respected hunting folks I know. This LRH (maximum effective range) community should consider the same.

 

[WildRose]

I am in full agreement with this. The LRH community has worked hard for years, honing and tuning a set of ethics and morals more honorable that I personally have ever seen held by any other group of hunters. That is something to be proud of. The uneducated misconception from the "I don't do it that way so I don't like it" crowd, that we are just taking pot shots at distance needs to be educated. It is time we make them fully aware of the effort we put forth to insure accuracy and shooting skill is impeccable. Not only with our take of game at well over 500 yards, but also that the take of game at 100 yards is done with precision that no group of hunters this large as a whole have ever progressed to. Never before has there been a group of hunters that better understood what "My effective range" means. Taking game properly at distance has produced better skills that have proved to produce more well placed bullets and one shot humane takes of game than ever before. Only those that don't truly know would deny this. Or those who choose to down play precision hunting at distance because they feel some sort of threat from it to their personal chosen methods of take. Then there will also be the group of authors that will do whatever for controversy to attract reader count. What ever happened to the days when an author was held to a level of professionalism where he was required to gather an unbiased statement of facts from both sides of an issue?? A lost art for sure I say.

I have read and reread the article in mention. It is poorly written and the thought of " an occasional long range shot is ok" just shows the author is either uneducated in what it takes to execute a precision shot at distance. Or he is trying to hold his group of old school together by condoning the "I held 14" over his back and hit him" club of yesteryears.

We do indeed need to bring forth our skill set and what it is truly like to produce precision well placed shots for the take of game at distance. Also how the game animal suffers less as it and the rest of the herd is not terrified by the percussion of a magnum rifle shot inside 100 yards like a bomb going off in your own home when you least expect it.

Jeff

Your latter point is pretty key in my opinion. I've taken deer and hogs both out of the middle of a large herd with zero spooking of the rest especially when shooting into the wind or with a stiff cross wind. I've even had a few occasions where some or all of the rest came running over to check and see what happened.

Of course some would say that is part of why it's unsporting since it enables us to take more from the same herd without spooking them but I think that's definitely more humane than scaring the hell out of the whole herd just to take one.

 

[406precision]

Jeff hit the nail on the head.


I think the main point that the article and anti long range community is missing is that the skill in taking an animal at distance is not something that can be bought and paid for it must be learned and practiced and that the skills and practice that it takes to effectively harvest game at extended ranges takes more range time than any other style of hunting.

You show me a serious long range shooter and I am going to see a person who is not happy with mediocre results.. and who has burnt enough powder to stock the local gun shop in the off season making sure they have the skills to pay the bills. They have checked and rechecked their equipment and have logged hundreds if not thousands of rounds down range to prove to themselves they have the best information available to make the shot when it counts and a life is on the line. They are also humble enough to know the limits of their equipment and themselves.

The long range community needs to stand up for itself and do as much as possible to educate the general public about what kind of work goes into making a good shot be it from 100 yards or 1200.

Traditionalist need to understand that the equipment we use is very specialized and refined and that because of the equipment and technology of the day longer shots can now be taken with more confidence and proficiency than ever before...and although technology has definitely made the kind of shooting most of us enjoy easier and more effective it is only a tool designed to help us reach a goal, much like a hammer is an effective tool for building a house, but without the education needed to do so your simply bending nails.

We get the argument that long range hunting is not hunting all the time...but how can anyone judge what is and isn't hunting? is there more skill in wandering through the woods from point a to point b until you happen across an animal and shoot it at 60 yards, or in watching and scouting the animals you intend to hunt and knowing their patterns and routines well enough to establish a shooting position and cleanly harvest the animal??

The term bow hunting gets thrown around a lot when trying to weave a tale of what a true hunter is.. but I find it pretty funny that successful bow hunters and long range hunters share many of the same techniques in harvesting game from scouting and studying animal traits and travels to knowing your own personal effective range with said equipment....yet bow hunting is sacred and long range hunting is evil???

The lack of education and the misleading sales pitch of guaranteed success with x amount of dollars spent is killing long range hunting. We need to stand together back to back and educate the general public and those who are attacking our chosen techniques for harvesting game. The term maximum effective distance is one that needs to be in bold print. Each of us has their maximum effective range and it is up to each of us to be the judge of what that entails.

I truly wish I was more elegant with the written word and could convey my thoughts with as much clarity and impact as I truly would like, but all I can say is that not educating the public is only allowing the other side to do it for us!!!!

Jordan@406

 

[MMERSS]

The term maximum effective distance is one that needs to be in bold print.

You have the school Jordan to start driving home maximum effective distance terminology vice "long-range" to include instruction on how to determine those limits. Thankfully Applied Ballistics, via Bryan, is developing a field program (WEZ) to help one determine confidence or hit probability in the field. Confidence limits are a great method for education. I shot an elk at 900 yards can have many meanings. Making hunting posts such as 900 yards with a confidence of 98% including the conditions is different than 900 yards with several shots, most certainly due to low confidence limits. Instructing and harvesting animals within high confidence limits, or maximum effective range, will drive home the message. We can take the lead by setting this example.

 

[406precision]

Believe me we try and drive home the fact that each person has a different effective range and it is for each of us to learn what ours is. We try to take several steps to make students realize that making a shot on a steel plate under perfect conditions is not the hunting norm and that you need to practice shooting in field conditions and on targets that give you concrete visual reference of hits and misses. That is why all of our shooting is done prone and we spend one whole day doing drills and comps that allow the students to effectively gauge what distance they feel comfortable with and where to start really working on their craft. We also encourage people to bring all the equipment they plan on using in the field and try to express the importance of practicing with what they have to learn the limitations and issues with their current gear.

For 2015 we will be taking an additional step forward by adding several more life sixe targets with reactive vitals to as closely mimic the real deal as possible. I have found that it is often hard for a shooter to admit what their actual skill level is until you put them in a scenario that is simply scored a hit or a miss>>> rather than close enough.

Jordan@406

 

[MMERSS]

I have found that it is often hard for a shooter to admit what their actual skill level is until you put them in a scenario that is simply scored a hit or a miss>>> rather than close enough.

Have you considered conducting a Root Sum Square (RSS) uncertainty analysis with each student prior to making the at range shot? The analysis is a great method with "estimating" hit probability prior to pulling the trigger. In essence, another method with determining an effective range based off the current conditions and shooter/gun/ammo precision potential while in the field.

 

[WildRose]

You have the school Jordan to start driving home maximum effective distance terminology vice "long-range" to include instruction on how to determine those limits. Thankfully Applied Ballistics, via Bryan, is developing a field program (WEZ) to help one determine confidence or hit probability in the field. Confidence limits are a great method for education. I shot an elk at 900 yards can have many meanings. Making hunting posts such as 900 yards with a confidence of 98% including the conditions is different than 900 yards with several shots, most certainly due to low confidence limits. Instructing and harvesting animals within high confidence limits, or maximum effective range, will drive home the message. We can take the lead by setting this example.

A term those of us who are former or active military which we used extensively in training is, "Maximum Effective Range", which generally was the limits a given weapon or weapons system had for consistent accuracy, and an effective, clean kill.

It also incorporated the skill level of the shooter. Since that term has been around for decades and so many of us in the LR and sniper communities are former military we could just agree to stick with that so we're not complicating the vocabulary.

One thing that we have a hard time with is simply convincing people that we're not just jerking their chains when we're talking in a lot of cases rather glibly about 600yds just being a chip shot and a thousand yards consistently doable. Most folks simply are not willing to accept that you can do something they cannot and if they have convinced themselves that 300yds is extremely long range the only way to convince them otherwise is to offer to show them and help them to make a few shots at ranges they simply didn't formerly accept as even being possible.

To that end it's up to us to reach out when we're out shooting and someone becomes interested in our rigs, rounds, scopes etc to welcome them on over, engage them in conversation and if they want to try a shot or two let them.

I've done this with pretty much all of my friends and many of my clients and its' extremely rewarding to see their faces light up when you coach them through what you are doing, they see the shot made, and then to see them really light up when you succeed at helping them make a shot or two.

My brother's kid Jimmy is very much a city boy but his dad grew up on the ranch and I taught him to shoot and shoot well beyond 300 yds many years ago.

Last year for the first time Jimmy came along with us and we ere busting rocks from 400-750 and of course he actually put down his electronic game and got interested so in a few minutes I had him doing the same thing with the .264, then the 300wm, then the 7stw and then even the 300Rum.

We didn't even tell him how far he was shooting but he was doing well with near misses and good first shot hits and it didn't take long for the apprehensive teenager to be taking those shots with confidence and getting hits even out to 880yds.

When we got done we told him what calibers he was shooting and the ranges at which each of the targets was and he was utterly floored.

Needless to say the hook was set for life all in about an hour and he got to go back to school and brag about his accomplishments. Of course he had half a dozen friends begging to come out next time they headed out my way hoping they too would get a chance to try it themselves.

We are ambassadors for our sport everywhere we go and the best way to ensure we can keep enjoying our sport is to be good ambassadors.

 

[bigngreen]

Some great comments guys, man I'm encouraged!!

Driving home the effective range concept and it's application I think is a very solid position to present, I think we need to also make sure that the people we help or teach are left with a good idea of how to evaluate themselves as they improve and their gear improves so they can keep the train on the tracks so to speak.

 

[Broz]

I think along with the maximum effective range we should also put forth the fact that we are indeed "precision hunters" with precision ammo , precision rifles and precision skills. It is time we separate our selves from the holdover "poke and hope" group using Kentucky windage of yesteryears that gets lucky once in a while. We need to educate the precise methods we truly use and how we determine this effective range. If not it is to easy for the uneducated to simply take for granted we are simply sending lead and it is not precise, as so many nay-sayers put forth. I teach in my classes that maximum effective distance is made up of mainly 3 components. Rifle accuracy, ammunition accuracy and consistency, and shooter skill. These 3 as a team determine effective maximum range. Environmental conditions fall under shooter skill as some will have better knowledge and practice of how to deal with different conditions than others. So in the end each precision hunter will have a different max effective range under different conditions.

The other thing that we need to put forth is indeed our own code of ethics. Or maybe leave the ethics off and call it "The Precision Hunter Code" I suggest we work on this as a group and advertise it. Not only for the uneducated to show we are very much striving for the cleanest, most humane take of a game animal. But also to give the new comers to our group a lead to follow as well. A high set of standards that we all do our best to hunt within. For example one could be the quote from Shawn Carlock and note it is a quote that came from him and his Defensive Edge school.
"If I don't feel I will be completely amazed if I miss this shot, I will not take it at an animal"

Just some food for thought.

Jeff

 

[FEENIX]

WHOA! I'm getting the goose bumps.

 

[406precision]

In my opinion the general public has been sold a mislabeled bill of goods when it comes to long range hunting equipment. All to often we get calls from people who have bought one of the newest coolest gadgets on the market yet they have no understanding of what it does or how to actually use it...from guys buying a scope with a bdc reticle or custom turrets who simply believe that it is as simple as ranging an animal and pulling the trigger.

Modern day hunting shows have done little to educate the viewer on anything but what products he or she should buy...and or what outfitter they should use for a trophy hunt.

One thing we really really try to imprint on people who attend our class is KNOW HOW TO USE YOUR EQUIPMENT AND WHAT IT DOES. Knowing your equipment like the back of your hand is the cheapest insurance that you can get when it comes to success. Part of knowing your equipment is gathering the knowledge on how to properly use it in order to effectively judge your competency with it. This includes your gps, kestrel, range finder, ballistics app, scope, reticle, rifle and the rest of the gear you choose to pack. It also means getting out and putting rounds down range in field conditions and seeing what works and what doesn't...a lot of products seem like a viable option when you sit behind them on the living room floor, but out in the field you find they are just expensive paper weights....

One very important thing to remember is just because you have the money to buy an airplane it doesn't make you a fighter pilot!!!

A big step that needs to be made in my opinion is also educating the general public about the merits and values of long range hunting as a valid hunting technique.

Here is an article by Shawn Carlock that explains kinda of how he ended up on the long range hunting bus and I think it makes a ton of sense.

Long Range Hunting Ambush

Long range hunting can and is a very valuable tool for harvesting game and it can be a necessity for some hunters based on their physical limitations and or the pressure their hunting areas encounter be it four legs, four tires, etc....

As an example we had a client attend our spring class who was wounded in battle and could no longer make the kind of stalks that he once could do to the physical limitations his injury serving our country had afforded him. His whole goal for coming to the class was to educate himself on the merits and techniques needed to effectively harvest game at distance not because he wanted too, but because he needed to!!

After class it was apparent that he now had a solid foundation to work from and had established his comfortable maximum effective range..he was lucky enough to draw another elk tag in Idaho this year and is very excited about using his new skill set to successfully harvest his elk.

As Broz said too many people perceive long range hunting as a hope and poke procedure....what we should all strive to teach is that long range hunting is another tool in a hunters arsenal and with the proper training, equipment, and understanding it can be a very viable option!!! but if your not willing to put the rounds down range to become proficient at your craft then maybe you would be better suited to sit on the couch and play halo.

Jordan@406