Broz
Well-Known Member
Sometimes reading back through other posts a member makes will shed light on things. There are, in some cases, are patterns that reveal their true views on things. lightbulb
Are wolves really the problem
- Thread starter longrangehuntr
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dook
Well-Known Member
Here in Western Montana, we only have about 1/10 the elk we had 15 years ago when the wolves were introduced. The "official numbers" are skewed in favor of wolves.
It has everything to do with the wolf introduction. Under subsistence conditions a wolf may kill only 20 elk a year, but when you factor in the fact that they kill elf for sport, the number is many times that amount. The sport killing of elk by wolves has tapered way off, not because wolves got religion, but because now there are so many more wolves and so few elk that they tend to have to eat all they kill.
Elk populations are still going down and wolf populations are still going up.
Even if we were allowed to hunt wolves 24 hours a day and 365 days a year using fully automatic weapons, silenced weapons, spotlights, electronic calls, helicopters, hounds, 2 way radios and bait, we would never be able to get the elk populations back up to what they were. Why? because if wolf populations dropped to 25% of what they are now, they would make up the difference in damage by sport killing and they would go completely nocturnal.
The only way to solve the wolf problem is to do as our much wiser ancestors did and use poison and biological warfare. That is what responsible wildlife managers should be advocating.
It has everything to do with the wolf introduction. Under subsistence conditions a wolf may kill only 20 elk a year, but when you factor in the fact that they kill elf for sport, the number is many times that amount. The sport killing of elk by wolves has tapered way off, not because wolves got religion, but because now there are so many more wolves and so few elk that they tend to have to eat all they kill.
Elk populations are still going down and wolf populations are still going up.
Even if we were allowed to hunt wolves 24 hours a day and 365 days a year using fully automatic weapons, silenced weapons, spotlights, electronic calls, helicopters, hounds, 2 way radios and bait, we would never be able to get the elk populations back up to what they were. Why? because if wolf populations dropped to 25% of what they are now, they would make up the difference in damage by sport killing and they would go completely nocturnal.
The only way to solve the wolf problem is to do as our much wiser ancestors did and use poison and biological warfare. That is what responsible wildlife managers should be advocating.
longrangefreek
Well-Known Member
I have been reading this thread and have been trying to figure out how to chime in without jumping into an arguement. This thread asked the question " are wolves really the problem?" The answer I have to that question is absolutely yes. I will be honest when the the reintroduction first came about in Idaho in 1995 I was all for it. I was young and had no clue as to how these preditors were going to affect our elk and deer herds. I saw nothing wrong with the reintroduction. By 2001 I was starting to see an issue growing. Elk herds were getting smaller the elk were acting different and were more scattered than I was used to seeing. I really thought nothing of it at the time. I hunted an area in Idaho that had the largest herd in the state roaming at that time. Elk hunting was awsome. We would see so many elk every year. stories I can tell my children cause they will never get to see what i saw in there lifetime.
By 2006 my elk hunting areas were really beginning to take a hurt. I saw more wolf sign every year. Started hearing the wolves more every year. Elk herds were dropping and dropping fast. even faster in other units. something here was definately wrong. it was not due to over hunting cause fish and game had dropped all cow hunts in that area for a couple of years now. the success rates were dropping every year and more and more wolves were being spotted.
in 2010 I went into the back country of Idaho for a 10 day hunt n that 10 days we heard a pack of at least 12 wolves and a couple singles and another pack of 6. there were atleast 20 wolves in this one area. the elk were scarse. Now I went to another part of the zone after that hunt and saw 6 more wolves and once again very little elk. I was really started getting angry cause my hunting area went from top knotch to absolute Sh!!. the elk herds were even worse than the year before. By last year I saw 2 bulls total in all the days I hunted and about 10 cows and no calves. I saw 12 wolves in one drainage i hunted. We actually watched them take down 2 elk the first morning there. I know that since being able to hunt the wolves the fish and game has said that they are seeing more calves per hundred cows but the herd has already taken a huge hit. it will take years of excellent management and control of the wolf population to get the elk herds back to close to where they were. sure we can say that other preditors contributed to the decline of the elk herds, but when you look at the herds before 1995 in Idaho Montana and Wyoming the only logical explanation to the drastic decline in these states ar the reintroduction to the wolves. the elk had never seen a preditor like this and the wolves took full advantage of the easy prey. we are now seeing major decines in Moose and deer populations. why the drastic drops well history tells the story. the wolves food source in deminishing so it is time to change the diet a little.
I have a friend that lives in the Bitterroot valley and the elk population from 10 years a go to now is scarry. almost completely gone. I could go on and on how the wolves have negatively impacted our natural resource here in Idaho but I won't. It is essential to the elks survival that we as hunters do our part to control the wolf populations by meeting the wolf qoutas that are given to us every year. a few extra would not hurt either. We are only putting a dent in the problem as fast as they breed. we must stop pointing fingers at each other and come together to help our herds survive. Whether you are a rancher or a city slicker. we need to stop the fighting and put that energy towards keeping our elk, deer and moose herds thriving for our children to enjoy.
YES THE WOLVES REALLY ARE A PROBLEM. A major problem in my state and others and I hope that other states around us do not experience the declines we have. wolves are being seen more and more in other states and I hope that they are controled before they affect those states like it has affected ours. Until it affects you at a personal level it is real easy to assume we are all overracting. We are not overracting we are living in reality every day we step into the woods.
By 2006 my elk hunting areas were really beginning to take a hurt. I saw more wolf sign every year. Started hearing the wolves more every year. Elk herds were dropping and dropping fast. even faster in other units. something here was definately wrong. it was not due to over hunting cause fish and game had dropped all cow hunts in that area for a couple of years now. the success rates were dropping every year and more and more wolves were being spotted.
in 2010 I went into the back country of Idaho for a 10 day hunt n that 10 days we heard a pack of at least 12 wolves and a couple singles and another pack of 6. there were atleast 20 wolves in this one area. the elk were scarse. Now I went to another part of the zone after that hunt and saw 6 more wolves and once again very little elk. I was really started getting angry cause my hunting area went from top knotch to absolute Sh!!. the elk herds were even worse than the year before. By last year I saw 2 bulls total in all the days I hunted and about 10 cows and no calves. I saw 12 wolves in one drainage i hunted. We actually watched them take down 2 elk the first morning there. I know that since being able to hunt the wolves the fish and game has said that they are seeing more calves per hundred cows but the herd has already taken a huge hit. it will take years of excellent management and control of the wolf population to get the elk herds back to close to where they were. sure we can say that other preditors contributed to the decline of the elk herds, but when you look at the herds before 1995 in Idaho Montana and Wyoming the only logical explanation to the drastic decline in these states ar the reintroduction to the wolves. the elk had never seen a preditor like this and the wolves took full advantage of the easy prey. we are now seeing major decines in Moose and deer populations. why the drastic drops well history tells the story. the wolves food source in deminishing so it is time to change the diet a little.
I have a friend that lives in the Bitterroot valley and the elk population from 10 years a go to now is scarry. almost completely gone. I could go on and on how the wolves have negatively impacted our natural resource here in Idaho but I won't. It is essential to the elks survival that we as hunters do our part to control the wolf populations by meeting the wolf qoutas that are given to us every year. a few extra would not hurt either. We are only putting a dent in the problem as fast as they breed. we must stop pointing fingers at each other and come together to help our herds survive. Whether you are a rancher or a city slicker. we need to stop the fighting and put that energy towards keeping our elk, deer and moose herds thriving for our children to enjoy.
YES THE WOLVES REALLY ARE A PROBLEM. A major problem in my state and others and I hope that other states around us do not experience the declines we have. wolves are being seen more and more in other states and I hope that they are controled before they affect those states like it has affected ours. Until it affects you at a personal level it is real easy to assume we are all overracting. We are not overracting we are living in reality every day we step into the woods.
longrangefreek
Well-Known Member
Amen Broz,
kind of what I was thinking while reading.
kind of what I was thinking while reading.
longrangehuntr
Well-Known Member
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MontanaRifleman and mtnwrunner; you are why people have a distaste for sportsmen. I have been posting all along i am all for hunting wolves, not once did i say i was against hunting wolves. I have been hunting for many years and that fact that i was searching for proof not someones word as to why the wolves are the problem is why i asked this question. I also posted that if I were in the position/location as many of you are i would be s,s,s when it came to every wolf and coyote. It seems to me that you can type away on a keyboard but cant or wont go shoot a wolf or 10. Longrangefreek made the most sense of most of these posts and i would like to see any pics you can provide to this thread. It has been said that elk cannot be herded any direction they do not want to go yet if you shoot a pile of elk they go away but you have to leave the gut piles and or the entire elk to rot. Is that not a means of herding elk?
Getting angry at me because i don't believe what you say without a thought or wanting proof is the same as the mass of sheeple that believe the libs about how gun control will eliminate crime.
you keep shooting the elk in montana, and wolves and bears and mnt lions and coyotes and i will continue to hunt in washington and idaho.
post the pics whenever you can
Getting angry at me because i don't believe what you say without a thought or wanting proof is the same as the mass of sheeple that believe the libs about how gun control will eliminate crime.
you keep shooting the elk in montana, and wolves and bears and mnt lions and coyotes and i will continue to hunt in washington and idaho.
post the pics whenever you can
dook
Well-Known Member
Mass media and Hollywood are why people have a distaste for sportsmen and mass media/Hollywood is why some fools want gun control.
"Proof" is not something that comes from some corrupt "person with authority". The experiences of everyday hunters are worth more to me than what bought-and-paid-for "ex-spurts" say.
mtnwrunner
Well-Known Member
Well, you don't know me from adam and I don't know you other than what you post. You can look up my profile and it will tell you who I am but the funny thing is yours doesn't say a thing. Hmmmmmm.............lightbulb The one thing that I can assure you of is that I am about as much "sportsman" as one can be and that statement from you is the only real one so far that has ****ed me off. You say that I, and others are "angry" with you---nope, I, we, just hate ignorance when it comes to the wolf issue. I, unlike you, LIVE in one of the most controversial wolf areas when it comes to the wolf issue so yes, I can speak about that issue with some experience. You have been given example after example after example of why it is the wolves which is the answer to your original post. There is no one on this site that is gonna change your mind---you have it made up.
Randy
Oh yeah, be sure to vote for conservatives..................
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Let's get a couple of things straight... first, I am not angry at you... a little frustrated at times with your rhetoric, but not angry. Next, I never said or implied that you were against hunting wolves. What I have said is that your rhetoric muddies the water and is distracting to the real issue which was/is the introduction of a destructive species and the efforts of those who favor it. That said, I'm not really sure what you are for or against. There seems to be a lot of contradiction in your posts.
I personally know several of the members posting in this thread, but I don't you from Adam. You could a pretender of some sort for all I know. We all live here at ground zero and have witnessed the madness first hand. A way of life is being destroyed for many. Prosperous and healthy elk herds have almost wiped out and it is a silent catastrophe. You start this thread and state that the real problem is poachers and Natives and not wolves. Can you imagine the dismay of us here who are living a wolf nightmare, when someone like you who claims to be a sportsman and hunter, says that wolves are not the problem???
I find it a little mind boggling that you engage in debates with bigngreen and rooster about hings you know nothing about and they know everything about because they live it. I am not a rancher, but I have lived in Montana long enough to understand something about ranchers and ranching and I understand that they have an affection for the wildlife of Montana and at the same time struggle with it. Many of them are avid sportsmen and hunters, but at the same time, their livelihood is sometimes in direct competition with what they love. You seem unable to grasp that.
"Scarring" and "herding" are completely different things. You can scare a wild animal "away" from a particular location but you can not herd them "to" a specific location. Wild animals are not livestock, especially not elk. When winter comes, food becomes scarce for wildlife. Elk migrate to hay fields where fodder is sweet and plentiful. The drive to eat overcomes the fear of danger and although you haze and shoot them, they always come back until spring thaw when they migrate back into summer range.
My specific location the Gallatin Valley which is in between rooster and bigngreen is not a great place to hunt wolves. It is a high population area (for Montana) with a lot of rural residential and farm land and access is extremely difficult. The closest best place to find wolves is on a ranch that Ted Turner owns so that is out of the question. Bottom line is that if I want to hunt wolves I need to go East to the Paradise Valley or West to the Madison Valley, where it is much easier to come into contact with wolves. This I plan to do this winter after the regular hunting season and if an opportunity arises during the regular hunting season, well I sure will take it.
As far as researching the facts, it's not that hard to do if you really want to. And i will tell you that rooster, bigngreen and others are giving you the facts. They are giving you a good education and insight to the real deal. Take advantage of it.
rooster740
Well-Known Member
After this post I am not contributing to this thread. For the record any elk killed out of season that I was involved with we're the result of a Montana Fish and Game kill permit. All animals were sold at public auction by the MFWP or processed and donated to the food bank.
My father spent 33 years as a Montana Game warden and retired in 2003, so although I am not a biologist, I have seen a lot of action!
In 2005 and 2006 my father spoke against the mfwp wolf management in Helena, it is all on record. That fall while hunting with my father I was arrested by the warden that replaced my father for killing a bull elk 1 minute early in Jardine MT. I was told by the retiring judge that the case would be thrown out! I lost in court with a brand new judge in her first case! The new judge was personal friends with the new warden and hated my father. I was turned in by a rival outfitter. The warden was not present on the day of the incident. In court I was told by the judge that a guy must use a cell phone to tell the exact time of day. Yet the warden wrote the wrong shooting time for the day of the incident on the ticket. Long story short they got my father back for his testimony! So I get a bit ****y when I am called a poacher and I have no use for the mfwp!
Oh and I have a few dead wolf pictures, come to my house and I will show you them
Happy hunting
My father spent 33 years as a Montana Game warden and retired in 2003, so although I am not a biologist, I have seen a lot of action!
In 2005 and 2006 my father spoke against the mfwp wolf management in Helena, it is all on record. That fall while hunting with my father I was arrested by the warden that replaced my father for killing a bull elk 1 minute early in Jardine MT. I was told by the retiring judge that the case would be thrown out! I lost in court with a brand new judge in her first case! The new judge was personal friends with the new warden and hated my father. I was turned in by a rival outfitter. The warden was not present on the day of the incident. In court I was told by the judge that a guy must use a cell phone to tell the exact time of day. Yet the warden wrote the wrong shooting time for the day of the incident on the ticket. Long story short they got my father back for his testimony! So I get a bit ****y when I am called a poacher and I have no use for the mfwp!
Oh and I have a few dead wolf pictures, come to my house and I will show you them
Happy hunting
longrangehuntr
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If this were true then why is it that once i posted how I saw a difference in washington with native americans shooting whatever i was told that was false. my own experience was false and everyone was telling me that native americans are not killing anything? The media cannot be all false.
longrangehuntr
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longrangehuntr
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- Joined
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longrangehuntr
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 106
After this post I am not contributing to this thread. For the record any elk killed out of season that I was involved with we're the result of a Montana Fish and Game kill permit. All animals were sold at public auction by the MFWP or processed and donated to the food bank.
My father spent 33 years as a Montana Game warden and retired in 2003, so although I am not a biologist, I have seen a lot of action!
In 2005 and 2006 my father spoke against the mfwp wolf management in Helena, it is all on record. That fall while hunting with my father I was arrested by the warden that replaced my father for killing a bull elk 1 minute early in Jardine MT. I was told by the retiring judge that the case would be thrown out! I lost in court with a brand new judge in her first case! The new judge was personal friends with the new warden and hated my father. I was turned in by a rival outfitter. The warden was not present on the day of the incident. In court I was told by the judge that a guy must use a cell phone to tell the exact time of day. Yet the warden wrote the wrong shooting time for the day of the incident on the ticket. Long story short they got my father back for his testimony! So I get a bit ****y when I am called a poacher and I have no use for the mfwp!
Oh and I have a few dead wolf pictures, come to my house and I will show you them
Happy hunting
I would very much like to move to montana, I would like to purchase the former Hope Ranch property in White fish montana. if there are no more elk, MFWP will be without a large portion of income so if they want to put themselves out of a job so be it. states make too much money of of hunting to just throw that revenue away. Sounds like you need to vote for new management or even run for game warden. sounds like the rival outfitter wants all the elk for his business. how did the rival outfitter know what time you shot the elk? no one had to prove what time you shot the elk? I tried to turn guys in for poaching and game and fish told me if they don't see them doing it they cant do anything.
Red Sparky
Well-Known Member
Did you know when they introduced them they also introduced African Lions? At White Sands Missile Range there are pictures of lions on the missile range. The lions didn't make it so they had no predators but hunters. Imagine if we were having this discussion over lions rather than wolves.
Now I am not starting a fight among ranchers and hunters but these are my personal experiences.
On your other post you stated the ranchers and Native Americans drive elk onto their land. I can't say from personal experience about Native Americans but I have seen ranchers moving elk into their land from forest service boundaries before hunting season. Yes you can move them by human scent and activity in the area before hunting season. A lot of people have called this false but it does happen. The reason is in your other post.....BIG BUCKS for private land tags.
I have been to NM G&F meetings when ranchers were bitching about the elk on their land destroying crops and causing an economic hardship on the ranches and wanting more tags. When I asked them, in the open meeting, if I could hunt their ranch since I had a public land tag I was told NO.
The same with the Oryx....ranchers wanted to charge to hunt their land or no access. Now that is their land to charge access to but don't complain about the wild life damaging the land and crops if you do not want animals taken off it without charging $.
Now as I stated earlier I am not starting a fight between hunters and ranchers. I RESPECT them both, I have been on both sides of the fence. I know people on both the good and bad side of hunting and ranching. Some bad apples on both sides give the whole barrel a bad taste.
Now to get back on topic..Yes the wolves are a major problem. They should have been hunted a lot sooner than they started the hunting season. The reintroduction is completely FUBAR and I don't think we as hunters can catch up and reduce the population to what it should be.
