Which scale?

[Huntsman66]

Ok… so lets talk about this for a min. and before anyone jumps on me, lets understand a cpl of settled points. I believe 100% that you need to use a quality scale that is calibrated and verified with quality "check weights". And I understand that expensive scales will settle faster, not drift, and measure out to extremely fine weights. But, for loading just quality ammunition, a kernel of powder weights a given amount and you can't change that, so if your scale measures to that kernel you are done, you can't do fractions of that kernel. Where do you benefit with a scale that will measure a granule of powder (for lets say medication) in this process. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about kool new high speed toys, but this one issue has always made me think.. why?. Why spend $1000 on an item that a $300-$400 scale will do?

Dont beat me up to bad!

 

[QuietTexan]

But, for loading just quality ammunition, a kernel of powder weights a given amount and you can't change that, so if your scale measures to that kernel you are done, you can't do fractions of that kernel.

You're 100% correct, but the wrinkle is that a single kernel of extruded powder like Varget weighs something like 0.02gn and not many cheap scales will measure to that spec. A scale that only resolves to the nearest 0.1gn isn't going to get closer than 5-10 kernels, hence the need for 0.01 gn resolution. This is also why manual balances work very well, because they're cheaper to make much more sensitive.

1 grain is also 0.064g, so the unit of measure used here also hides a lot of detail. We're trying to resolve weights of less than 0.001g, that's a very small amount.

 

[Huntsman66]

You're 100% correct, but the wrinkle is that a single kernel of extruded powder like Varget weighs something like 0.02gn and not many cheap scales will measure to that spec. A scale that only resolves to the nearest 0.1gn isn't going to get closer than 5-10 kernels, hence the need for 0.01 gn resolution. This is also why manual balances work very well, because they're cheaper to make much more sensitive.

1 grain is also 0.064g, so the unit of measure used here also hides a lot of detail. We're trying to resolve weights of less than 0.001g, that's a very small amount.

I agree and completely understand…. But back to my point, if im loading constantly good ammunition that shoots in good guns at .5 or better groups, with acceptable ES and SD, why do I really care? Other than to say I can. Now if you are loading for lets say, bench rest, where you are looking to shoot 00 targets, then maybe it pays off, but for long rang casual shooting, maybe even club league matches, and hunting is it still worth that 3x cost?

 

[6pakzak]

I will say that I use the two 50 gram calibration weights (100 total) from my RCBS scale for calibrating my A&D scale. I'm sure they aren't certified but I use them as "my" baseline for my reloading. They certainly could be +/- .005 off or more, but that's what I use. There are many 200G weights out there for less than $20 bucks. Good enough to use to calibrate your scale. Just my opinion.

You really don't need a cal weight traceable to a National Std. weight. I have one but never use it - it has to be handled with the silk glove that comes with it. And, in my opinion you don't need a balance readable to more that .1gr for reloading unless you are going to take a razor and cut kernels or shave some off them. I have sold analytical balances for years, mostly Mettler, Ohaus and Sartorius and I think anything over .1gr is a waste of time and money. Besides, unless you have a draft shield and close it every time a .01gr may never settle down from air currents. Here are the weight classifications. https://www.scalesplus.com/blog/what-are-calibration-weight-classes/

 

[6pakzak]

What if your rifle has a very small window for the charge that it likes, like suppose it likes 25.5 but 25.4 or 25.6 doesn't do as well?

 

[Huntsman66]

What if your rifle has a very small window for the charge that it likes, like suppose it likes 25.5 but 25.4 or 25.6 doesn't do as well?

Thats my point my charge master light will throw all of those accurately… just can't do 25.525

 

[6pakzak]

Thats my point my charge master light will throw all of those accurately… just can't do 25.525

For me if it can do .01 that's more than good enough, grains not grams, I will probably go with the TRX, 300.00, like you said for club shooting and what I'm doing I don't need any better.

 

[meatyrem]

Electronic Scales are like optics. You get what you pay for. For me I wanted a little more precision. I could have went with a more expensive model into the $1000's if I wanted bench rest accuracy

 

[6pakzak]

Electronic Scales are like optics. You get what you pay for. For me I wanted a little more precision. I could have went with a more expensive model into the $1000's if I wanted bench rest accuracy

Sometimes you get more than you pay for, sometimes you get less, not all expensive stuff is good, not all cheap stuff is bad, I'm sure most of us have had pricey rifles that shot like crap, I know I have, if a 300 dollar scale will get the job done for me than that's all I need and if you're not a benchrest shooter or don't do any competitive shooting and a 2000.00 scale makes you happy who am I to say you shouldn't have one.

 

[meatyrem]

Right some people would be just fine with $300 binocs and there are other that need the $2000 ones. With the $300 pair work sure

 

[QuietTexan]

I agree and completely understand…. But back to my point, if im loading constantly good ammunition that shoots in good guns at .5 or better groups, with acceptable ES and SD, why do I really care? Other than to say I can. Now if you are loading for lets say, bench rest, where you are looking to shoot 00 targets, then maybe it pays off, but for long rang casual shooting, maybe even club league matches, and hunting is it still worth that 3x cost?

I don't think you included that point in the post I quoted, so to that point specifically - no, if what you're doing is working for you then why would you care.

I recommend higher end scales to people because I think the combination of accuracy, precision, speed, and ease of use is well worth what you pay to get it. If someone else doesn't value each of those to the same level I do, of course it won't be worth 3x the cost for them. Do you get all four of those things out of your setup? If yes, great. We can each make great, high quality stuff in a multitude of different ways.

I didn't change because my previous scales were bad - they could be made to produce very accurate results. But it was taking way too much time, too much effort, and was frustrating me to the point I didn't want to do it anymore. It comes down to I was willing to pay more to shoot more by loading faster. The V4 is hands-free, drops to the 0.02gn, and most importantly has a charge waiting every time I reach for it. My biggest reason for moving was speed, and keeping accuracy and precision high at the speed I wanted to move at. I have kids, jobs, lots going on, and while I do enjoy loading a lot, I don't enjoy trickling single kernels of powder around enough to not spend half the cost of a barrel on a tool that I'll use for a very long time to do it for me.

I could have done three Charge Masters to maybe get to the same point, but "ease of use" wouldn't have been there because I don't have the space to line those up.

 

[6pakzak]

I don't think you included that point in the post I quoted, so to that point specifically - no, if what you're doing is working for you then why would you care.

I recommend higher end scales to people because I think the combination of accuracy, precision, speed, and ease of use is well worth what you pay to get it. If someone else doesn't value each of those to the same level I do, of course it won't be worth 3x the cost for them. Do you get all four of those things out of your setup? If yes, great. We can each make great, high quality stuff in a multitude of different ways.

I didn't change because my previous scales were bad - they could be made to produce very accurate results. But it was taking way too much time, too much effort, and was frustrating me to the point I didn't want to do it anymore. It comes down to I was willing to pay more to shoot more by loading faster. The V4 is hands-free, drops to the 0.02gn, and most importantly has a charge waiting every time I reach for it. My biggest reason for moving was speed, and keeping accuracy and precision high at the speed I wanted to move at. I have kids, jobs, lots going on, and while I do enjoy loading a lot, I don't enjoy trickling single kernels of powder around enough to not spend half the cost of a barrel on a tool that I'll use for a very long time to do it for me.

I could have done three Charge Masters to maybe get to the same point, but "ease of use" wouldn't have been there because I don't have the space to line those up.

Good point, time is certainly a valuable thing, still not sure which one to go with, 5yr warranty and quick charging is big plus for 120i, so the TRX cannot be hooked with auto trickles and 120i can?

 

[QuietTexan]

It's my understanding the AT only works with the 120i.

My prior set up was a bulk powder drop (Hornady AutoCharge because that's what I had already) and a Dandy trickler onto a lab scale with 0.02gn resolution. It worked fine for how manual it was - you could do that kind of a set up on either the 120i or the TRX. The 120i, while IMO better, is probably only worth the cost if you plan to get an AT some point.

So I don't come off as an AT shill - Area 419 apparently has something similar in the works, and the Match Master (not the Charge Master) from RCBS is supposed to be on the same level as the AT. Either of those two alternatives would mostly fulfill my personal accuracy, precision, speed, and ease of use standards, with the primary exception of with the RCBS you can't separate the scale from the powder drop, which was a big deal to me.

 

[6pakzak]

It's my understanding the AT only works with the 120i.

My prior set up was a bulk powder drop (Hornady AutoCharge because that's what I had already) and a Dandy trickler onto a lab scale with 0.02gn resolution. It worked fine for how manual it was - you could do that kind of a set up on either the 120i or the TRX. The 120i, while IMO better, is probably only worth the cost if you plan to get an AT some point.

So I don't come off as an AT shill - Area 419 apparently has something similar in the works, and the Match Master (not the Charge Master) from RCBS is supposed to be on the same level as the AT. Either of those two alternatives would mostly fulfill my personal accuracy, precision, speed, and ease of use standards, with the primary exception of with the RCBS you can't separate the scale from the powder drop, which was a big deal to me.

So what would be needed for auto drop setup for 120i, obviously the scale and then what else