Recoil, what recoil?

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tbrice23

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Brice: Limbsaver makes pads to fit most popular factory stocks. I have some of those, but I also have the 'grind-to-fit' Limbsavers that were fitted by my Gunsmith such as the one on my Ithaca Model 37 12 GA. shotgun. The slip-on Limbsavers I have a couple that I use just for testing other guns.

Comparison between a Limbsaver and any other so-called recoil pad is a waste of time and probably money. The Limbsaver is not like the others. Even the material is patented.
Thanks. I like brakes but I would like to try one, but I dont want the extra LOP the slip-on gives.https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3...c-sp-10-marlin-xl7-xs7-synthetic-rubber-black
 

gator378

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IMO, there should be few comments about recoil.
A came to that realization after doing a search on the 325WSM and noticed someone's comment about it kicking like bay mule, then making another comment about how the 338WM is so much better. I am not denying that recoil exists and shows itself in very light rifles but an effective recoil pad will effectively tame recoil for everything up to the elephant guns and beyond, provided you have a scope with enough eye relief. I keep the crosshairs on and let the thing jump. If you haven't tried the new generation recoil pads, they are game changers. I love to shoot my WSMs and a very light 338WM without flinching at all due to my Limbsavers and all are custom fit, 2 min installation. If any gun has an issue with recoil, it can be tamed easily. cheers
The standard for recoil 870 shotgun with slugs. my 300 Weatherby is a kitten compared to a slug gun.
 

Rich Coyle

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Watch super slow mo vid....there are dozens.
force =mass x acceleration
acceleration = change in velocity over TIME.

Just because there is an instantaneous force...TIME is still required for mass to change position in response to that force impulse.

Your recall pad on the end of your stock is not where the force of the bullet acts first.
First the gas...then the gas on the barrel, then the barrel on the stock....

the bullet is gone and half way to the target ( yeah, not 1000 yards, but several) before the rubber on the pad is absorbing or distributing the force of recoil.
Before the entire mass of the system is moving, the muzzle brake has also exerted its influence on the rifle system.

That is why you can shot a 50 cal. If the brake did not act before the pad...it would simply not be of any use.

Again, you need not take my word for it ....there are dozens and dozens of very high frame vid that you can consult now.

PS...reminds me of the debate that race horse people used to have.
Millions of people watched horses run and yet there was considerable debate if all four feet were in the air at the same time.

High speed photography put an end to all the debate.
Opinion and theory didn't matter, it was obvious from the still frames what happened
(Yes, at full speed, a race horse did get all feet in the air bt. strides)

pss



watch at about 19 sec.

absolutely no movement of the stock at the moment the bullet and gas are leaving the barrel.
recoil and visible movement of stock and absorption of that shock wave at the shoulder several seconds latter (in this high speed vid)


I didn't see the video because I am using the phone. Never the less you made a sell. Thanks for taking time to post.
 

BallisticsGuy

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IMO, there should be few comments about recoil.
A came to that realization after doing a search on the 325WSM and noticed someone's comment about it kicking like bay mule, then making another comment about how the 338WM is so much better. I am not denying that recoil exists and shows itself in very light rifles but an effective recoil pad will effectively tame recoil for everything up to the elephant guns and beyond, provided you have a scope with enough eye relief. I keep the crosshairs on and let the thing jump. If you haven't tried the new generation recoil pads, they are game changers. I love to shoot my WSMs and a very light 338WM without flinching at all due to my Limbsavers and all are custom fit, 2 min installation. If any gun has an issue with recoil, it can be tamed easily. cheers

That person was very probably me; I'm known for remarking on that specific thing in that specific way, and it was stated for a reason. It's true. It's mathematically calculable as being easily as severe as a .375H&H. Anyone that says that's not a lot is lying to themselves or others or both. Taking a jolt of 35lbs of recoil energy and 15fps of recoil velocity is the same basic thing as getting punched full force full grown man. If that's your thing, cool but it's not most people's thing.

.325's are almost always found in 8-9lbs hunting rifles. The combination of projectile weight, powder charge weight, relatively high velocity and light gun mass makes for around 35-37lbs of free recoil and a recoil velocity around 17fps with common 200+gr hunting ammo.

~25lbs of free recoil at 15fps is at the upper limit of what the average human man can tolerate shooting and it's known that that much power is likely to cause the shooter to develop a flinch. Much more than that and you're looking at something that's likely to cause an injury, even if that injury is just having your bell rung or a big bruise on the shoulder. Injury is injury.

Recoil mitigation methods are fine and dandy. I can't anything harder kicking than a .30-06 without them. They don't change the fact that I'm shooting a hard kicking rifle when I'm using them.
 
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Sorry, if that was yours... I didn't mean to single anyone out.
I just found the new pads as absolute gamechangers in my very light magnums. Nothing mystical as usual... the stock pad is very hard rubber. Look at any hard kicker and I bet the pad is weak.
 

memtb

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Seeing these comments, I thought that I’d “crunch” the #’s on my wife’s rifle. The weight shown is, rifle scoped, 4 rounds, and slung. Admittedly, she rarely shoots from the bench, usually only to verify the zero. She is very comfortable with the rifle, including from prone. The recoil values are: recoil impulse - 4.69 lbs. sec. recoil velocity - 16.88 fps. recoil energy - 39.59 ft.lbs. She uses “no” muzzle brake, doesn’t like them!

She’s not “super tuff”, but not a “sissy”! The rifle was cut to fit, has a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad, and Leupold scope ( good eye relief). Her rifle fits her, she’s comfortable with it, and is confident with it’s performance on game! I don’t think she’d want more recoil.....but handles this pretty darn good! memtb

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BallisticsGuy

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I ain't trippin'. I know what I know and why I know it. Your thesis I do take some limited issue with because just having a recoil pad is not necessarily helpful. It needs to have the right level of hardness and thickness and still isn't going to do much even if it is the right hardness and thickness. For those that aren't familiar with the related science: Look up "inertia", "energy", "velocity", "durometer" and "coefficient of restitution" and prepare to discover a whole new world (also consider that there are people in the world that really get off on studying things like durometer and coefficient of restitution).

A recoil pad is the least effective way to control perceived recoil. You're still eating all the energy, just increasing the time it takes by a ridiculously tiny margin.

Adding fixed position rifle mass does as well as a recoil pad, not very. Adding mass that can move around like mercury recoil reducers can be fairly effective. Using a brake/suppressor actually reduces the amount of energy that reaches the shoulder and makes them tremendously effective.
 

memtb

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BallisticsGuy, Maybe you can verify or deny my thoughts on this. A smaller (lighter) shooter will perceive the recoil somewhat less than a heavy shooter! My thoughts, the lighter person will begin to “roll with the punch”, while the heavier person is still absorbing energy! If I’m correct, maybe it will inspire me to drop some weight. memtb
 

BallisticsGuy

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No. That's the opposite of how it works unless the ability of said person to hold their shape goes is reduced with their mass.

Look at high speed film of recoil and you see there's 2 things going on there. The first event is the rifle breaking inertia and coming back to whip the firer's butt (or shoulder and cheek). That butt whippin is equally delivered to all regardless of body size becuase it happens stupid fast. We all get punched by the same boxer and we all fail to block it.

The second event is the firer having their inertia and muscular tension (and occasionally their nose) broken and they gain motion at a rate proportionate to the product of their mass and the amount of butt kicking (momentum) being delivered. Small guys move more because they've already got their butt kicked but there was only so much butt to absorb the kicking and so now they're just dealing with the rest of the energy the only way physics allows without them catching fire. By picking up velocity.

Big guys don't move as fast or as far as a result of a particular amount of recoil as a smaller guy so Bigge's head and other body parts aren't accelerated as violently. Thus it would stand to reason that they would perceive the recoil as being less violent than a twig built guy who just got speedily accelerated onto his bootie.

It's the same as punching a big guy or punching a small guy. Little guys feel it more.
 
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A recoil pad is the least effective way to control perceived recoil. You're still eating all the energy, just increasing the time it takes by a ridiculously tiny margin.

"Least effective?" To the extent that they are effective to me, regardless of recoil control method efficiency, all I can attest to, is managing all of my light magnums with zero flinch.
 

mdk777

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Conversely, there is truth to the old saw, the bigger they are the harder they fall.
Oh course, not because they weigh more, but because they have a greater distance to accelerate due to gravity 32 ft /sec per sec.

An extra foot or two makes a huge difference.
Toddlers don't break their wrists when they fall 1ft or even 2ft.

However, Old 6ft guy trips and does break wrist.
Not because he weighs more, but because he has so much further to fall.

I know this is all off topic, but these scale things are pretty interesting.
We all have a natural ability to judge these things (yeah, I can jump off this chair, but not the top of the step ladder) but "unnatural" circumstances clouds our perspective and WAG instinct.

We can judge getting hit ...but when velocity goes past evolutionary norms...we loose the ability to scale it.

Hence, number one cause of death for Cowboys?
Falling off a horse(or thrown)

most difficult injury to judge since modern welfare?
Shock wave from explosion.

The science is just now getting caught up. Turns out that the WWI term or Shell shock was actually pretty accurate. They are doing brain scans now showing that the damage from repeated even small brain shocks can be quickly detrimental.

For example, the military has changed how they handle hand grenade instruction and door blasting (instructors were getting brain damage much faster than anticipated)

Sooo..., coming full circle,

I agree with those who want to limit blast shock as well as recoil.

write your reps to make "silencers" cheap and legal. ;)
 

memtb

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OK, so I ‘m a little dense! It seems that your synopsis in effect agrees with what I’m saying. While both the “big guy” and the “little guy” initially receive the same energy....the little guy begins to respond to the energy more quickly by his reaction away from the source, while the big guy absorbs all. So....if all of the energy is absorbed almost instantly by either big guy or little guy, prior to the bodies movement away from the energy source....we could then, stand with our back to a wall, tree, ect., fire a heavy recoil rifle, and the felt recoil would be the same as standing firing offhand, unsupported! As, the bodies have already absorbed the energy....movement away from the energy source means little to nothing!

Let me know when I grasp the concept! Still in denial! memtb
 

mdk777

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yeah, someone already posted about the measurement of "fast" recoil vs. total.

What really "hurts" is not the speed....but the stopping.

Hence if you hold any gun a half inch from you, it is going to smart much more than if it held in "firm" contact.

To answer your question, yes the felt recoil " the fast near instantaneous" shock is the same if backed to a wall or free standing.

The only difference is how you absorb and re balance in response to that shock.
 
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