Question on loading

[MagnumManiac]

Exactly Koda that's why we don't FL size. FL sizing work hardens the case and makes it brittle and shortens its life. Annealing helps but with a belted magnum cartridge constant FL sizing is going to stretch the case to a point where your brass is going to get thin in front of the belt. Bumping the shoulder only definitely lengthens case life in these cartridges.

This statement is so wrong it's laughable.
Same as your comments about doing what the champions do.
Do you have the equipment they have?
If you don't, you're just blowing hot air out your butt…

And, yes, WE do Partial FL Size, neck sizing has been proven time and again to be totally a waste of time because cases grow, which means they are not the same each firing…

Done with this thread.

 

[TRexF16]

I think a lot of the confusion on this thread is caused by folks not clarifying the difference between the following:
1) Using a FL die like the instructions that came with it say - screwed down to the shell holder PLUS a bit more so the press has to cam over at the end of the stroke, thus reducing the case size by the max extent the FL die is capable of, and:
2) Using a FL die that is screwed down just enough to barely bump back the shoulder, with about .002" below a fully fire formed case being a commonly accepted amount.

Some people call both of these FL sizing, since they're done with a FL die, and make no distinction. Some people call the first FL sizing and the second shoulder bumping. Another problem here is there is also the concept of shoulder bumping using a Body die, which unlike method 2 above, ONLY slightly sizes the body and bumps the shoulder without sizing the neck. Some folks only refer to this as shoulder bumping, when they use that phrase, and still use FL sizing for the other two.

Then there is the distinction (which many fail to make) between "neck sizing" with a neck sizing die (or bushing dies), which only sizes the neck and not the body, and "neck sizing" with a FL die, screwed down only so much that the neck (and again, a fair bit of the body) is sized, but the shoulder is never touched.

All of the methods above can work fine but their effects on brass can be quite different, despite the names people use for the processes. My sense is that if everyone understood exactly what the other guy was referring to in the language that particular guy uses to describe his method, we'd see a lot less disagreement in this thread. It is clear that lack of distinction between "1" and "2" has led to some of the disagreement here.

Cheers,
Rex

 

[Shifty6br]

Loading and firing virgin brass separately for a matching caliber is a waste of time and barrel life in my op.

True "Fireforming" is if you are completely changing the dimension of one brass to another, ie blowing shoulder angle forward and length dimensionally etc. It is here where you will obviously see a difference as these true fireforming loads are normally reduced load.

I load for 6 different centerfire calibers and half of them need to be necked down in diameter from their original neck dia with the brass brand I am using...(Lapua) and the virigin brass shoots just the same as once or twice fired.

On the flip side, this is something you will need to decide..the only way you will find the answer you seek is by trying it out yourself and recording your data...you will notice a trend the further along you experiment. In my personal xp you will most likely find the difference is just not there.

I do keep a vigilante count on how many times I fire each batch of brass in rotation as annealing is an important step in my reloading process..normally after three firings.

 

[Shifty6br]

On a tangent ...Neck sizing only can get you in trouble in the field...ok sure it may work out fine from your car to the bench.

If you are neck sizing only you really really need to keep track of your brass after every firing either by gauging growth after every firing or doing a chamber check to ensure that each piece will still chamber.

The problem with this is not all brass reacts the same, while close some will be slightly different in dimension than the next. Be complacent and your going to have rounds that won't chamber when you may need it the most.

The accuracy difference really isn't there, I have found, to not fl resize everytime vs just nk sizing. Nor is the risk of my rounds nor chambering and I just dont have time to chamber checking every batch. Yes I used to nk size only and found it just not to be worth it for me.

 

[Koda_]

I think a lot of the confusion on this thread is caused by folks not clarifying the difference between the following:
1) Using a FL die like the instructions that came with it say - screwed down to the shell holder PLUS a bit more so the press has to cam over at the end of the stroke, thus reducing the case size by the max extent the FL die is capable of, and:
2) Using a FL die that is screwed down just enough to barely bump back the shoulder, with about .002" below a fully fire formed case being a commonly accepted amount.

Some people call both of these FL sizing, since they're done with a FL die, and make no distinction. Some people call the first FL sizing and the second shoulder bumping. Another problem here is there is also the concept of shoulder bumping using a Body die, which unlike method 2 above, ONLY slightly sizes the body and bumps the shoulder without sizing the neck. Some folks only refer to this as shoulder bumping, when they use that phrase, and still use FL sizing for the other two.

Then there is the distinction (which many fail to make) between "neck sizing" with a neck sizing die (or bushing dies), which only sizes the neck and not the body, and "neck sizing" with a FL die, screwed down only so much that the neck (and again, a fair bit of the body) is sized, but the shoulder is never touched.

All of the methods above can work fine but their effects on brass can be quite different, despite the names people use for the processes. My sense is that if everyone understood exactly what the other guy was referring to in the language that particular guy uses to describe his method, we'd see a lot less disagreement in this thread. It is clear that lack of distinction between "1" and "2" has led to some of the disagreement here.

Cheers,
Rex

thank you for sharing this. Being newer to reloading I started out shoulder bumping with a FL die so its all I know, but in many discussions the term and or whats actually happening in the die has always been confusing to explain.

Ive always assumed that Shoulder Bumping (SB) is a type of full length sizing, it must also reduce case diameter to a small extent or maybe it doesnt at all and brass movement is only forward? Its easy for me to see and explain how SB moves the shoulder datum less.

 

[robert rex]

Eric Cortina is NOT a handloader. He uses new unfired brass ONCE for his F-class shooting. He has said this time and again. He is sponsored by Lapua, so he has abundant brass to use, let alone all the other stuff he is sponsored with.
If you are developing loads with unfired brass, you are wasting your time if you are going to then use that brass as you fire form it. It will change powder charge requirements pretty quick and you will end up wondering why your loads are not consistent.

Cheers.

Erik Cortina shot the world championships with brass fired numerous times. He said when he finished the event his brass had 12 reloadings…he left it in Africa just because he was needed space. He makes an entire line of full length sizing dies and mandrels.

 

[VinceMule]

Eric Cortina is NOT a handloader. He uses new unfired brass ONCE for his F-class shooting. He has said this time and again. He is sponsored by Lapua, so he has abundant brass to use, let alone all the other stuff he is sponsored with.
If you are developing loads with unfired brass, you are wasting your time if you are going to then use that brass as you fire form it. It will change powder charge requirements pretty quick and you will end up wondering why your loads are not consistent.

Cheers.

Always, test your new brass groups vs fire-formed. You can get lucky, but confidence will come from verification and testing.

I have surely found differences in groups between using different brands of full length sizers, so a new case is the smallest dimension with less capacity with only a small base sizer coming close, then you have brass spring back.

Often, you have to alter the accuracy load 1.0-.5g for new brass, but it is a WAG!

 

[skipglo]

Hey you do whatever trips your trigger. I'm not going to argue the point. I'll do what the real experts do and extend my brass life.

I'm not arguing a point either Clem...you stated I wasn't FL sizing....I replied...I am indeed!

 

[AkleyFan]

Bless you @FEENIX for this image... I do love its understated yet gentle message.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

I think a lot of the confusion on this thread is caused by folks not clarifying the difference between the following:
1) Using a FL die like the instructions that came with it say - screwed down to the shell holder PLUS a bit more so the press has to cam over at the end of the stroke, thus reducing the case size by the max extent the FL die is capable of, and:
2) Using a FL die that is screwed down just enough to barely bump back the shoulder, with about .002" below a fully fire formed case being a commonly accepted amount.

Some people call both of these FL sizing, since they're done with a FL die, and make no distinction. Some people call the first FL sizing and the second shoulder bumping. Another problem here is there is also the concept of shoulder bumping using a Body die, which unlike method 2 above, ONLY slightly sizes the body and bumps the shoulder without sizing the neck. Some folks only refer to this as shoulder bumping, when they use that phrase, and still use FL sizing for the other two.

Then there is the distinction (which many fail to make) between "neck sizing" with a neck sizing die (or bushing dies), which only sizes the neck and not the body, and "neck sizing" with a FL die, screwed down only so much that the neck (and again, a fair bit of the body) is sized, but the shoulder is never touched.

All of the methods above can work fine but their effects on brass can be quite different, despite the names people use for the processes. My sense is that if everyone understood exactly what the other guy was referring to in the language that particular guy uses to describe his method, we'd see a lot less disagreement in this thread. It is clear that lack of distinction between "1" and "2" has led to some of the disagreement here.

Cheers,
Rex

Perfectly stated. Thanks

 

[Brijake]

Erik Cortina shot the world championships with brass fired numerous times. He said when he finished the event his brass had 12 reloadings…he left it in Africa just because he was needed space. He makes an entire line of full length sizing dies and mandrels.

He also has numerous YouTube videos stating full length sizing is what he and most top shooters do.

 

[Hugnot]

New brass will never conform to chamber as well as fired brass.

F/L size new brass, check for length, neck run out, neck wall thickness then load as usual. I avoid absolute max loads.

I always F/L size brass.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

He also has numerous YouTube videos stating full length sizing is what he and most top shooters do.

ONLY to the point of bumping back the shoulder, not with the die contacting the shell holder. There is a big difference between running your case into a FL sizing die to only bump back the shoulder and to totally FL size (with the die contacting the shell holder. See Post #30 above. A very good description.

 

[randy86314]

I size full length for several calibers with a neck bushing which minimizes working of the neck, where most brass working occurs. I bump the shoulder about .002, just enough to permit easy feeding into the chamber. I don't have problems with stretching or separation,
In an informal experiment In my M1A, I fired a small batch 10 shots without stretching, and cracked necks started to occur after about 10 shots.
I anneal them after 5 firings.