Load as usual and fire away...no wasting here!
Question on loading
- Thread starter Clem Bronkoski
- Start date
This talk about fire forming new brass has always amazed me when talking about standard brass made for a certain everyday caliber...not talking about wildcats where one is blowing out the shoulders for a caliber the new brass is not designed for. There is really no such thing then as fire forming . So...you buy Virgin brass or factory ammo made with VIRGIN BRASS and fire it...hunting or target or varminting ....is it now fire formed to my chamber....answer.. sure....but the moment I re-loaded it...full length size it...it's no longer fire formed to MY CHAMBER. IF one only neck sizes.and bumps just the shoulder..then one could say...okay ...it is 75-80% fire formed for MY CHAMBER....but what has this changed in performance.....? You hear all the time it TAKES ENERGY AWAY to fire form new brass.... doesn't it take the same ENERGY to re- fire form every single time one re-loads? My results with new brass from same manufacturer have always satisfied me for the past 43 years if I deduct 10 years for LEARNING from my 53 years total....never set out to just fire form brass once! Wasted time and components.....Just me!
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Well said!
Thank you Sir!
cape cove
Well-Known Member
I hear what you are saying but sized brass in a standard die isn't sized back to virgin specs unless you are using a small base die and even then. You also have shoulder bump which you have to adjust for. The overall process can add up to a grain or two of case capacity depending on which case you are using which can change things. I don't believe it would make much of a difference in short range hunting but in long range and target applications it will make a difference. JMO
Koda_
Well-Known Member
about a year ago I was curious about this when fireforming brass for my 25-06 ackley improved and tested this. I loaded 2 samples of virgin brass the same as my fireformed brass recipe and measured the velocity difference of less than 0.1%
I fully admit 2 samples is not enough data point to conclude anything scientifically but that was the limit of my curiosity. Im just not that worried about it and find the subject of needing to fireform factory ammo over rated especially for anyone not hunting over say 300yds.
I hunt with fireformed brass, because its not hard or expensive enough to load say 10 rounds of virgin brass to get it fireformed. But a simple test of say 10 rounds now and then will tell someone if virgin brass will not work for the ranges they want to hunt with compared to their fireformed brass. This is why we reload instead of rely on factory ammo, at some point everyone goes to the range just for practice... fireform some more brass.
Clem Bronkoski
Well-Known Member
Skip you're not FL sizing and one of the best reasons I know not to FL resize is to so your brass last longer. I do agree that shooting components just to fire form is probably a waste of components but I wanted to ask. I've been loading for 60 years and I've always FL sized my brass. But now that I've been getting hooked on this long range shooting I'm listening to the guys that have been doing it for a while and blogs by the long range gurus/champions. I will do what they're doing. There may be other benefits to only bumping back the shoulder but I'll admit I'm not good enough to see the difference. But at the price of premium brass I only want to work it as little as possible. Even then I'll likely be annealing after about 3 firings.
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Koda_
Well-Known Member
I thought the whole point of shoulder bumping was to work the brass as little as possible, and improved consistency?
Clem Bronkoski
Well-Known Member
Exactly Koda that's why we don't FL size. FL sizing work hardens the case and makes it brittle and shortens its life. Annealing helps but with a belted magnum cartridge constant FL sizing is going to stretch the case to a point where your brass is going to get thin in front of the belt. Bumping the shoulder only definitely lengthens case life in these cartridges.
Koda_
Well-Known Member
? this goes against everything Ive read about FL sizing and shoulder bumping. How does FL sizing work harden the case?
And annealing doesnt just help, it brings the brass back to its malleable state which allows the FL sizing to do its job, if your shoulder bumping that means just moving the brass usually just a few thou and sizing the neck of course?
Clem Bronkoski
Well-Known Member
Ok here's how. You FL size a case which now fits slopply in your chamber. You fire said case and it expands to fit your chamber. Also the brass, upon firing, flows forward somewhat. Depending on the cartridge trimming the case may be necessary after a few firings.
Now you take that same case again and run it through your FL sizing die. So every time you FL size and fire that case you're contracting and expanding the brass, hence work hardening it.
Just running a case that was fired in your chamber enough just to allow proper chamber (.002" shoulder bump) reduces the working of the brass. Also like I noted before, with a belted case which head spaces off the belt, doing a shoulder bump will reduce case weakening in front of the belt by reducing case stretch.
And when I said annealing helps I meant just what you said. It relieves the work hardening.
Now you take that same case again and run it through your FL sizing die. So every time you FL size and fire that case you're contracting and expanding the brass, hence work hardening it.
Just running a case that was fired in your chamber enough just to allow proper chamber (.002" shoulder bump) reduces the working of the brass. Also like I noted before, with a belted case which head spaces off the belt, doing a shoulder bump will reduce case weakening in front of the belt by reducing case stretch.
And when I said annealing helps I meant just what you said. It relieves the work hardening.
I am Full length sizing...from 6.5-50bmg and all sizes in between. ..,.just me! Brass will last as long as it lasts...and I will buy more. Neck sizing...necks split, FL sizing...may get the start of case head separation or full head, but....what cause loose primer pockets if you don't ever ream pockets....Brass will last as long as it lasts!
Clem Bronkoski
Well-Known Member
Hey you do whatever trips your trigger. I'm not going to argue the point. I'll do what the real experts do and extend my brass life.
Koda_
Well-Known Member
Ok, I didn't emphasize shoulder bumping enough. Agree how true FL sizing works the brass more but annealing mitigates that a lot.
Im referring to shoulder bumping now specifically, with annealing, works the brass the least. You suggested above to someone that you know not to FL size so your brass lasts longer, but everything Ive read about annealing and shoulder bumping suggests longer case life. Anyways, I think I understand your take better now.
Side note: I don't reload for a belted magnum so I cant speak to that, except Ive heard some people shoulder bump belted cases to headspace off the shoulder instead of the belt. Seems like that would help mitigate work hardening the case but again I dont load any belted cartridges so Im not certain how anyone can change where it datums from.
