No Hydrodynamic Shock Below 2600FPS??

[jessej]

Not sure my muzzle loader gets above 2600 FPS ever....wait I know it doesn't...does the job just fine!

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.
Projectile dysfunction…….everyone suffers from it at times.

 

[jessej]

 

[pmh-usa]

I did correct my post in that I meant pistol bullets - my point was not to promote using handguns just to emphasize how setting an arbitrary lower limit of 2600fps to define hydrostatic shock effects is simply ludicrous - I encourage all to visit the terminal ballistics website where all the findings there (and it numbers in the hundreds if not thousands) come from various sized animals "autopsied" if for no other reason than to review various cartridges' bullet impact performance.

 

[bomberodevil]

As stated in my previous post: Decades ago, author Jim Carmichael wrote an article describing 30-06 bullets fired into western bison. This was an organized, controlled test/study. Only broadside center of rib shots. Shot placement purposely avoided the CNS. Most animals ran after bullet impact. Then eventually fell over and died. However several of the bison dropped as if struck by lightning.

After a little Google searching, I found this 'Carmichael' text, which is a portion of the article that I had read many years ago:
"New Evidence
This epiphany came about a couple of years back when I was passing a pleasant afternoon in a bird-watching blind in the wilds of Namibia. A previous guest had obligingly left a few copies of a South African outdoor magazine and as I idly leafed through the pages my attention was arrested by an article on knockdown effect. It was not the same tired old stuff about ballistics and penetration, but the result of a controlled study carried out by professional veterinarians engaged in a buffalo culling operation.
Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals.
Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage. So what is the connection?
Their conclusion was that the bullets that killed instantly had struck just at the moment of the animal's heartbeat! The arteries to the brain, already carrying a full surge of blood pressure, received a mega-dose of additional pressure from the bullet's impact, thus creating a blood pressure overload and rupturing the vessels.
If this is the key to the "knockdown" mystery, it has answered a lot of previously unanswered questions. It's certainly the best explanation of knockdown I've heard yet, but it also poses a new quandary. How do we time a shot to hit on the heartbeat? Let the debate begin."

That's a very interesting theory. Years ago in a medic CE presentation, I listened to a trauma physician from a busier trauma center in Phoenix talk about hydrostatic shock, and the difference of indirectly impacted organs of persons wounded with edge weapons, low velocity penetrating projectiles (mainly pistol wounds), and high velocity rifle wounds.

His point was, with projectiles of similar weight and diameter, the higher the projectile's velocity (with other factors contributing), the greater the hydrostatic shock wave that will cause internal injuries. The shockwave may travel laterally a few inches and cause traumatic damage to organs that weren't in the direct path of the projectile. This indirect damage could cause torn vessels and liquifying softer organs, such as lung tissue.

While much of this indirect traumatic damage to multiple organs accelerated the death of the person (or game in our discussion), they wouldn't necessarily cause the instantaneous "light switch" DRT being talked about here. The shockwave to the main arterials running to the brain, with post-mortem cerebral hemorrhaging is a plausible explanation for the instantaneous death without a direct insult on the CNS system. Interesting.

 

[bomberodevil]

He is a sponsor so please be respectful

I'm not a sponsor, but I question whether paying a sponsor fee gives someone the right to behave poorly and get a pass. Just my thoughts.

 

[villagelightsmith]

A respected ballistics expert basically says that bullets .338 diameter and less loose their hydrodynamic shock value below 2600fps. This basically means a .308 Win shooting a 180g bullet and a .338 Win Mag both loose their shock value in less than 100 yards. I have harvested animals with rifles from 270 Win to 375 H&H and am still confused.
I'm about to do a black bear hunt and if i go with that theory I'd pick a 225g over a 250g bullet for my 338 Win Mag. I'd be real interested in what you guys on the forrum have to say about this. What do you all think?

i've devoured too much of the hook & bullet printer's stock in trade to sit here a-gawkin' with wide-eyed wonder at some writer's magic formulae for slaying the wily black bear. I gua-ron-double-dam-tee that if you stuck the muzzle of a mere .30 Carbine in the eye or ear of a black bear before you squeezed off the legendary round. that bear would likely fall at your feet and play dead for a long, long time. I could also guarantee that if your shot crossed his path a mite late and just split the hide in a long furrow across her rear butt-cheeks, Mrs Bear, not being particularly stupid, would likely "bear" a large caliber ursine grudge against you for a long, long time. The female of any species has been known to do that, but Mrs. Bear is able to act upon such a sentiment with lethal effect.
But as per your question, any normal hunting load out of a .338 would roll up a bear unless you were using a plinking grouse load, in which case all bets are off. I would probably use thr .225 grain load, or the old 210 grain Nozler Partition if I could find them. It's a happy day when such questions are the only things we need to answer!

 

[RockyMtnUT]

i've devoured too much of the hook & bullet printer's stock in trade to sit here a-gawkin' with wide-eyed wonder at some writer's magic formulae for slaying the wily black bear. I gua-ron-double-dam-tee that if you stuck the muzzle of a mere .30 Carbine in the eye or ear of a black bear before you squeezed off the legendary round. that bear would likely fall at your feet and play dead for a long, long time. I could also guarantee that if your shot crossed his path a mite late and just split the hide in a long furrow across her rear butt-cheeks, Mrs Bear, not being particularly stupid, would likely "bear" a large caliber ursine grudge against you for a long, long time. The female of any species has been known to do that, but Mrs. Bear is able to act upon such a sentiment with lethal effect.
But as per your question, any normal hunting load out of a .338 would roll up a bear unless you were using a plinking grouse load, in which case all bets are off. I would probably use thr .225 grain load, or the old 210 grain Nozler Partition if I could find them. It's a happy day when such questions are the only things we need to answer!

That's a read

 

[WildRose]

A respected ballistics expert basically says that bullets .338 diameter and less loose their hydrodynamic shock value below 2600fps. This basically means a .308 Win shooting a 180g bullet and a .338 Win Mag both loose their shock value in less than 100 yards. I have harvested animals with rifles from 270 Win to 375 H&H and am still confused.
I'm about to do a black bear hunt and if i go with that theory I'd pick a 225g over a 250g bullet for my 338 Win Mag. I'd be real interested in what you guys on the forrum have to say about this. What do you all think?

The physics won't support that theory neither do the results I've seen in the field.

Lower velocity, less shock all else being equal but you still have hydrostatic and hydrodynamic shock as long as the bullet is supersonic.

 

[WildRose]

Typical. No one asks who. No one asks for a link to the article. Nothing. Just straight to insults and "I know better than them" without even knowing what was said or who said it.

I think I'll wait for context instead of showing everyone that I lack any basic critical thinking skills or humanity.

You're awfully quick though to insult the members of this board.

You're out of line.

 

[jbs2014]

Is this "hydrodynamic shock?"
Entrance side
View attachment 359074
Peeling the entrance side front shoulder back
View attachment 359075
Third picture is entrance side with front shoulder off.
View attachment 359076
Bullet ended up on the flank just underneath the hide (what was left of it)
View attachment 359078
View attachment 359079
It was a quartering shot

What caliber and bullet?

 

[WildRose]

A respected ballistics expert basically says

Name them and provide some links please.

 

[WildRose]

Nathan seems to be expressing his thoughts, based on what he's observed. Same as the rest of us. But what Nathan observes, no matter how many animals he's shot, doesn't provide the factual data to establish the detailed conclusions that he's expressed, in my opinion. We all form opinions based on what we observe. Nathan's expressed his.

I don't believe bullet kinetic energy was converted to electrical energy, which then caused the massive hemorrhaging observed in the brains of the bison.

The same bullet kinetic energy which explodes one gallon jugs of water, certainly produces a hydrodynamic pressure pulse. Apply that pulse in near proximity to veins and arteries within the chest of a game animal, and that pressure pulse will be applied to large veins and arteries near the heart. Connected veins and arteries could then burst anywhere in the animal, along their length. Yes, in the brain too. Just like over-pressuring a hose.

Compression is all it takes to disrupt neurons at least to a small degree.

How many times have you had a leg or foot "to to sleep" because you were sitting at an odd angle?

Compression caused by sitting there in an odd position disrupts both blood flow and neurologic communications.

If you know the right places to put pressure on a human body you can cause a lot of interesting effects.

 

[FEENIX]

@jbs2014

 

[Ernie]

What caliber and bullet?

88 grain ELD-M 22GT from a 15.9" center-grip XP-100

Impact velocity was around2650 fps