COBrad
Well-Known Member
No disrespect intended.
No Hydrodynamic Shock Below 2600FPS??
- Thread starter ralphjunius
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ATH
Well-Known Member
Killing a ton of animals isn't everything.
He uses a very specific and unique definition of "hydrostatic shock", which involves a shock wave transmitted to the spine from a chest hit. He then goes even further and calls this an "electrical shock wave traveling outwards via the rib cage". So how, exactly, is the kinetic energy of the bullet converted to an ELECTRICAL shock wave? This is utter nonsense, and he continues to throw out precise numbers without providing any data to back up these assertions. But it's not actually what he means, because he then goes on to describe shock which is sufficient to disrupt the electrical function of the CNS (which is not an electrical shock wave).
By the time you accomplish that with a chest hit, you are delivering an energy level far overkill for what most of us are trying to achieve, which is NOT CNS disruption via a heart/lung shot. I find his whole argument a red herring, poorly thought out and poorly communicated.
ralphjunius
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Didn't realize my post would cause such a firestorm. Sorry for late reply. Got busy at work, then had an accident and fractured a bone in my right hand. Didn't realize the name of the balistician was sooo important. I was really just asking for an opinion based on your experience. I am surprised so few know anything about Nathan Foster and his website ballisticstudies.com. Nathan has killed many, many animals and has rather extensively studied how bullets kill. I am not directly quoting Nathan but I think my post is a reasonable summation of his theory about 2600fps with bullets .338" diameter and less. Nathan appears to be the real deal. I have all of his books.
I apparently had mistakenly assumed that everybody on this forum would think that I know that bullets kill. My interest in the post is in instantaneous kills.
I have read a lot about what Jim Carmichael and others have said, and it seems like a reasonable theory. But unfortunately it has no practical application to induce an instantaneous kill.
I have killed my share of big game with various calibers. I don't like tracking and I hate wounding animals. I try to hit animals broadside on the shoulder with a tough bullet. I have found that my 270 with 129g Barnes LRX handloaded to 3100fps seems to drop animals disproportionate to its caliber and weight. The solid copper bullet in my experience typically does not damage much meat but still manages to do a lot of internal damage. My 375 H&H handloaded to 2735fps with 270g TSX's also drops even large animals.
That said I have never killed an animal with my 338 Win Mag and I am well aware it is more than needed for black bear. This is hopefully a warmup for a brown bear hunt. I just want to do what I can to drop the animal. My handloads get both 225 Woodleighs and Barnes TTSX's to a little over 2800fps and 250's to no more than 2650fps. If the instantaneous kill hydrostatic/hydraulic/hydrodynamic shock drops quickly below 2600fps, the 250g bullet for my purpose is a non-starter.
I hope this clarifies my question and I appreciate the replies and maybe this clarification will result in some additional good replies.
I apparently had mistakenly assumed that everybody on this forum would think that I know that bullets kill. My interest in the post is in instantaneous kills.
I have read a lot about what Jim Carmichael and others have said, and it seems like a reasonable theory. But unfortunately it has no practical application to induce an instantaneous kill.
I have killed my share of big game with various calibers. I don't like tracking and I hate wounding animals. I try to hit animals broadside on the shoulder with a tough bullet. I have found that my 270 with 129g Barnes LRX handloaded to 3100fps seems to drop animals disproportionate to its caliber and weight. The solid copper bullet in my experience typically does not damage much meat but still manages to do a lot of internal damage. My 375 H&H handloaded to 2735fps with 270g TSX's also drops even large animals.
That said I have never killed an animal with my 338 Win Mag and I am well aware it is more than needed for black bear. This is hopefully a warmup for a brown bear hunt. I just want to do what I can to drop the animal. My handloads get both 225 Woodleighs and Barnes TTSX's to a little over 2800fps and 250's to no more than 2650fps. If the instantaneous kill hydrostatic/hydraulic/hydrodynamic shock drops quickly below 2600fps, the 250g bullet for my purpose is a non-starter.
I hope this clarifies my question and I appreciate the replies and maybe this clarification will result in some additional good replies.
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Hugnot
Well-Known Member
More info:
"A Swedish research group (Goransson et al.) were the first contemporary researchers to present compelling evidence for remote cerebral effects from bullet impact to an extremity.[27] They observed significantly reduced electrical activity in the brain via EEG readings from pigs shot in the thigh. Investigating further, another research group (Suneson et al.) implanted highspeed pressure transducers into the brain of pigs and demonstrated that a significant pressure wave reaches the brain of pigs shot in the thigh.[18][28] These scientists observed breathing disruption, depressed EEG readings, and neural damage in the brain caused by the distant effects of the ballistic pressure wave originating in the thigh.
"Electroencephalography (EEG) is a method to record an electrogram of the electrical activity on the scalp that has been shown to represent the macroscopic activity of the surface layer of the brain underneath. It is typically non-invasive, with the electrodes placed along the scalp. Electrocorticography, involving invasive electrodes, is sometimes called "intracranial EEG"."
Apparently the reseachers wired up some pigs that were subjected to hi vel bullet hits & recorded reduced electrical brain activity via EEG's. An EEG is an established diagnostic tool - like used for years. I and all others in my group of trainees were subjected to an EEG back in 1963 looking for brain abmormalities.
Apparently the pressure wave reduced electrical brain activity as indicated by EEG readings. Electrical current (potential) is not generated by a bullet strike. I believe the hydrostatic effect is an important factor in making good clean kills. Fluids (hydro) such as blood cannot be compressed and transmit energy.
"A Swedish research group (Goransson et al.) were the first contemporary researchers to present compelling evidence for remote cerebral effects from bullet impact to an extremity.[27] They observed significantly reduced electrical activity in the brain via EEG readings from pigs shot in the thigh. Investigating further, another research group (Suneson et al.) implanted highspeed pressure transducers into the brain of pigs and demonstrated that a significant pressure wave reaches the brain of pigs shot in the thigh.[18][28] These scientists observed breathing disruption, depressed EEG readings, and neural damage in the brain caused by the distant effects of the ballistic pressure wave originating in the thigh.
"Electroencephalography (EEG) is a method to record an electrogram of the electrical activity on the scalp that has been shown to represent the macroscopic activity of the surface layer of the brain underneath. It is typically non-invasive, with the electrodes placed along the scalp. Electrocorticography, involving invasive electrodes, is sometimes called "intracranial EEG"."
Apparently the reseachers wired up some pigs that were subjected to hi vel bullet hits & recorded reduced electrical brain activity via EEG's. An EEG is an established diagnostic tool - like used for years. I and all others in my group of trainees were subjected to an EEG back in 1963 looking for brain abmormalities.
Apparently the pressure wave reduced electrical brain activity as indicated by EEG readings. Electrical current (potential) is not generated by a bullet strike. I believe the hydrostatic effect is an important factor in making good clean kills. Fluids (hydro) such as blood cannot be compressed and transmit energy.
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Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Yeah man when I saw that "2600 fps" number my first thought was "that sounds like Foster".
I happen to agree with him, I've read up a ton of his stuff and learned a great deal. He was the first to change my mind about what I was indoctrinated with growing up, that hunting bullets need to be tough and frangible bullets are unethical. He was the first to convince me to give the heavy .30 cal amax bullets a try…and dang!!!! When used appropriately they kill faster I think. In fact what I don't use a ton of anymore are conventional weight and construction hunting bullets - and there's NOTHING wrong with them, killed everything with Winchester power points and hornady interlocks befoee trying new things - but the greatest likelihood for a poleaxe DRT struck by lighting hammer of God type effect WITHOUT directly hitting the spine has been in my much more limited experience with either a lightweight monometal going at full warp speed OR a heavy for caliber tipped frangible target bullet (amax, eldm, Sierra TMK). Opposite ends of the spectrum but both are so emphatic…the frangibles obviously far superior at any true long range. My two favourite .300 win loads so far reflect this. A Barnes 120 tacTX at 4000 fps and a 225 eld m at 2800. Nathan foster has taught me more and opened my mind about what really works better more than any other single human being. Huge fan. Don't agree with everything he says. Don't have to. He's very reasonable and I've interacted with him on his forum, a humble and down to earth fellow, cites his experience only to lend credibility to his claims (I'd say experience AND theory) but is in no way tooting his own horn, ever. Very indebted.
And yes as someone has said, his def of hydro-whatever shock is different, to be honest i wish people would just lose the whole "hydro…shock" vernacular entirely. We don't agree with what it even is, if it exists, and along with "energy dump" it's a bit of a crock (for example, "kinetic energy transfer" doesn't mean squat and doesn't ensure death…y'all have no doubt seen a deer get hit by a car and not die immediately or even at all: the "kinetic energy transfer" that happened there is orders of magnitude more powerful than ANY shoulder fired weapon!!!!)
WC Shooter
Member
Hi, I've hunted bear in Alaska, Canada and the lower 48. Shot placement is what counts. Don't worry about hydrostatic shock. Bullet placement is critical for a fast, clean kill.
Please see my video of a bear I shot in Manitoba. CA in 2022. It was a clean heart shot with a Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun at about 70 yds.
My load was Nosler 300 grs. Silvertip, 49.5 grs. IMR 4198 & CCI LR primer; MV: 2160 fps, well under 2,600 fps. The bear died instantly. Your 338 has more killing power than needed.
Good Luck hunting! WC Shooter
Please see my video of a bear I shot in Manitoba. CA in 2022. It was a clean heart shot with a Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun at about 70 yds.
My load was Nosler 300 grs. Silvertip, 49.5 grs. IMR 4198 & CCI LR primer; MV: 2160 fps, well under 2,600 fps. The bear died instantly. Your 338 has more killing power than needed.
Good Luck hunting! WC Shooter
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Hugnot
Well-Known Member
Nathan did not need to wire up game animals for EEG data but the EEG effect contibuted to quick kills. The hydrostatic effect (transmission of energy thru fluids) has been proven to exsit.
I respectfully disagee with Nathan:
"The reason why game animals drop instantly with chest shots that do not directly strike the CNS, is due to hydrostatic shock transfer to the spine which passes through to the brain. A high velocity cartridge well matched to game body weights imparts over half its energy within the first 2cm of penetration, creating a shock wave. This electrical shock wave travels outwards via the rib cage until it reaches the spine and then continues through to the brain (CNS). The result is an immediate loss of consciousness as the body shuts down for diagnostics."
The "shock wave" is not "electrical" (flow of electrons). The effect of the shock wave has been demonstrated to affect brain function by reducing electrical activity in the brain as shown by EEG readings (see my previous post). Neural damage caused by the hydrostatic effect also occurs.
Game animals can but not always "drop instantly" upon a chest shot. Many coyotes run off upon a high vel chest hit with a bullet that blows up within 1 inch of the surface (2.54 cm per inch). Deers hit in the chest with high velocity bullets having adequate penetration frequently run off into the bushes and die.
I respectfully disagee with Nathan:
"The reason why game animals drop instantly with chest shots that do not directly strike the CNS, is due to hydrostatic shock transfer to the spine which passes through to the brain. A high velocity cartridge well matched to game body weights imparts over half its energy within the first 2cm of penetration, creating a shock wave. This electrical shock wave travels outwards via the rib cage until it reaches the spine and then continues through to the brain (CNS). The result is an immediate loss of consciousness as the body shuts down for diagnostics."
The "shock wave" is not "electrical" (flow of electrons). The effect of the shock wave has been demonstrated to affect brain function by reducing electrical activity in the brain as shown by EEG readings (see my previous post). Neural damage caused by the hydrostatic effect also occurs.
Game animals can but not always "drop instantly" upon a chest shot. Many coyotes run off upon a high vel chest hit with a bullet that blows up within 1 inch of the surface (2.54 cm per inch). Deers hit in the chest with high velocity bullets having adequate penetration frequently run off into the bushes and die.
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Shane Lindsey
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I am not sure there is any such thing. At least the living will never know.
I have wondered how long those who have been beheaded stared up out of the basket before the lights went out...
Way too much brain power into this thread. Pick up rifle, shoot rifle, put rifle down.
To all you who have educated me, thanks.
338, big bullet, big hole, big blood...just shoot straight.
"I" respectfully disagree. "My" comment does NOT pertain to a specific event/individual, but "my" unwritten rule is respect is not a one-way street or an entitlement, regardless of LRH status (sponsor or not). As a long-time LRH member, "I" met many outstanding LRH members that gained "my" utmost respect. Now back to the scheduled program. Cheers!
Nathan seems to be expressing his thoughts, based on what he's observed. Same as the rest of us. But what Nathan observes, no matter how many animals he's shot, doesn't provide the factual data to establish the detailed conclusions that he's expressed, in my opinion. We all form opinions based on what we observe. Nathan's expressed his.
I don't believe bullet kinetic energy was converted to electrical energy, which then caused the massive hemorrhaging observed in the brains of the bison.
The same bullet kinetic energy which explodes one gallon jugs of water, certainly produces a hydrodynamic pressure pulse. Apply that pulse in near proximity to veins and arteries within the chest of a game animal, and that pressure pulse will be applied to large veins and arteries near the heart. Connected veins and arteries could then burst anywhere in the animal, along their length. Yes, in the brain too. Just like over-pressuring a hose.
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
And let the record reflect at no point does he say he that slower bullets fail to kill. That would be obviously ridiculous.
And he acknowledges that different rules apply to different bullet types and shapes. Frangible AMAX types do great violence at low velocity. Flat point and round nose bullets just plain hit different at close range and low speed and he acknowledges that. Also that it's possible to have too much weight/sd for the intended target to offer sufficient resistance to initiate violent bullet upset. All things I've read elsewhere on this forum and observed.
I agree with his theory, not about electrical stuff or anything like that, but again WITH SPITZER SHAPED BULLETS OF TYPICAL HUNTING WEIGHTS AND CONSTRUCTION the odds of an instant or near instant incapacitation does seem to dramatically increase at impact velocities (not muzzle velocities) above 2600 fps. That's why at normal hunting ranges for deer sized critters i think it's still hard to beat the .270 Winchester with a 130 grain medium-tough soft point at an honest 3150.
He also has speculated that this is a part of the .30-06s wild success as THE sporting round against which others are measured. It's not just because it's American, 30 cal, a military cartridge…America has had other .30 cal military cartridges, along with many other military cartridges, and none of them have gone on to dominate the hunting scene after the way the old .30-06 did. He speculated that it's because it actually kills more emphatically than most of the others. A spitzer type bullets launched at appreciably over 2600 fps. Interesting.
And he acknowledges that different rules apply to different bullet types and shapes. Frangible AMAX types do great violence at low velocity. Flat point and round nose bullets just plain hit different at close range and low speed and he acknowledges that. Also that it's possible to have too much weight/sd for the intended target to offer sufficient resistance to initiate violent bullet upset. All things I've read elsewhere on this forum and observed.
I agree with his theory, not about electrical stuff or anything like that, but again WITH SPITZER SHAPED BULLETS OF TYPICAL HUNTING WEIGHTS AND CONSTRUCTION the odds of an instant or near instant incapacitation does seem to dramatically increase at impact velocities (not muzzle velocities) above 2600 fps. That's why at normal hunting ranges for deer sized critters i think it's still hard to beat the .270 Winchester with a 130 grain medium-tough soft point at an honest 3150.
He also has speculated that this is a part of the .30-06s wild success as THE sporting round against which others are measured. It's not just because it's American, 30 cal, a military cartridge…America has had other .30 cal military cartridges, along with many other military cartridges, and none of them have gone on to dominate the hunting scene after the way the old .30-06 did. He speculated that it's because it actually kills more emphatically than most of the others. A spitzer type bullets launched at appreciably over 2600 fps. Interesting.
Big surprise, eh?
