2050fps
No Hydrodynamic Shock Below 2600FPS??
- Thread starter ralphjunius
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As stated in my previous post: Decades ago, author Jim Carmichael wrote an article describing 30-06 bullets fired into western bison. This was an organized, controlled test/study. Only broadside center of rib shots. Shot placement purposely avoided the CNS. Most animals ran after bullet impact. Then eventually fell over and died. However several of the bison dropped as if struck by lightning.
After a little Google searching, I found this 'Carmichael' text, which is a portion of the article that I had read many years ago:
"New Evidence
This epiphany came about a couple of years back when I was passing a pleasant afternoon in a bird-watching blind in the wilds of Namibia. A previous guest had obligingly left a few copies of a South African outdoor magazine and as I idly leafed through the pages my attention was arrested by an article on knockdown effect. It was not the same tired old stuff about ballistics and penetration, but the result of a controlled study carried out by professional veterinarians engaged in a buffalo culling operation.
Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals.
Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage. So what is the connection?
Their conclusion was that the bullets that killed instantly had struck just at the moment of the animal's heartbeat! The arteries to the brain, already carrying a full surge of blood pressure, received a mega-dose of additional pressure from the bullet's impact, thus creating a blood pressure overload and rupturing the vessels.
If this is the key to the "knockdown" mystery, it has answered a lot of previously unanswered questions. It's certainly the best explanation of knockdown I've heard yet, but it also poses a new quandary. How do we time a shot to hit on the heartbeat? Let the debate begin."
After a little Google searching, I found this 'Carmichael' text, which is a portion of the article that I had read many years ago:
"New Evidence
This epiphany came about a couple of years back when I was passing a pleasant afternoon in a bird-watching blind in the wilds of Namibia. A previous guest had obligingly left a few copies of a South African outdoor magazine and as I idly leafed through the pages my attention was arrested by an article on knockdown effect. It was not the same tired old stuff about ballistics and penetration, but the result of a controlled study carried out by professional veterinarians engaged in a buffalo culling operation.
Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals.
Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage. So what is the connection?
Their conclusion was that the bullets that killed instantly had struck just at the moment of the animal's heartbeat! The arteries to the brain, already carrying a full surge of blood pressure, received a mega-dose of additional pressure from the bullet's impact, thus creating a blood pressure overload and rupturing the vessels.
If this is the key to the "knockdown" mystery, it has answered a lot of previously unanswered questions. It's certainly the best explanation of knockdown I've heard yet, but it also poses a new quandary. How do we time a shot to hit on the heartbeat? Let the debate begin."
Phorwath - this is the most plausible explanation I have read thus far. Now if I could only get the right shot timing down, those deer wouldn't take the death dash into the deepest ravine or thickest briar patch in the area. 
del2les
Well-Known Member
From the very same author the OP is referring to and it coincides with much of our own experiences (at least mine) -
"Frangible bullets tend to produce coma at much lower velocities than traditional hunting bullets (see bullet construction). With frangible bullets at low velocities, instant coma may be due to hydraulic shock causing blood pressure spikes in the brain as suggested by Hornady ballisticians. In other instances, coma can follow very shortly after impact due to multiple pain centers being disrupted to such an extent that the animal must go into coma."
"The further you shoot, the softer your bullet needs to be in order to affect a wide wound and fast killing at low velocities."
As many of us know, bullet design can have as much to do, or more, with quick kills than velocity.
"Frangible bullets tend to produce coma at much lower velocities than traditional hunting bullets (see bullet construction). With frangible bullets at low velocities, instant coma may be due to hydraulic shock causing blood pressure spikes in the brain as suggested by Hornady ballisticians. In other instances, coma can follow very shortly after impact due to multiple pain centers being disrupted to such an extent that the animal must go into coma."
"The further you shoot, the softer your bullet needs to be in order to affect a wide wound and fast killing at low velocities."
As many of us know, bullet design can have as much to do, or more, with quick kills than velocity.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
always struggling (me) to keep up.
"An 8 month study in Iraq performed in 2010 and published in 2011 reports on autopsies of 30 gunshot victims struck with high-velocity (greater than 2500 fps) rifle bullets.[25] In all 30 cases, autopsies revealed injuries distant from the main wound channel due to hydrostatic shock. The authors determined that the lungs and chest are the most susceptible to distant wounding, followed by the abdomen. The authors conclude:"
military-history.fandom.com
I quit shooting deers many years ago but remember seeing red goo when I opened deer chests, like lungs. My self-imposed range(distance) maximum for shooting deers is 400 yards. Most of the deers shot were hit with bullets having impact velocities of 2500 (plus/minus 100 fps). Abdominal contents (guts) were also affected to some degree. Death usually occured within 5 seconds and 50 feet (distance). No doubt many readers have had much more experience than I with shooting deers & other game animals and can present more factual accounts..
Moving on to to the rodents. Upon sustaining hits with bullets having velocities of 2500 fps (+- 100 fps) most of the rodents had a tendency to burst open regardless of bullet construction. Like the Iraq studies that examined hits with FMJ bullets. With impact velicities of less than 2500 fps (+- 100 fps) bullet consruction becomes important - like using bullets having the term "explosive". High velocity hits on bigger rodents & yotes with high velocity "explosive" bullets often had a single entry wound and no complete penetration, I guess hydrostatic shock occured because death was immediate. I wanted to have my biggest rodent/rockchuck stuffed (mounted) for display in my bullet room but wifey did not approve. A hit from a 6mm 105 AMax at 300 yards at about 2500 fps impact velocity killed it quick but with only a tiny entry and only slighly bigger exit. I expected to see the rodent burst open. Many years before another chuck was hit with a 6.5 140 grain Si GK at just under 500 and burst open - my guess is that the bullet passed thru the chuck & blew up when it hit rock that was in contact with the rodent. Hits with my most used bullet, .224 75 ELDM @ 3250 fps MV have over 2000 fps impact velocites up to 600 and swat small rodents down and most often do not make any of them burst open. The 6mm 87 Vmax from the 6mm AI at about 3,400 fps MV makes most rodents burst open. I'm guessing the bullet spin rate that remains constant might have an effect. I gave up on my 6mm-06 project as things got so hot with 8 twist, 87 Vmax's & big charges of 4831 type powders & did not produce more destruction than the 6 Ackley. Hits on steel make bullet dust fly in all directions, water in puddles splashes up feet away from hit, all this energy would occur in a hit on a bigger rodent.
Wound cavitation is also a factor. More cavitation has been observed with higher velocity 55 grain bullets than slower 62 grain bullets.
"An 8 month study in Iraq performed in 2010 and published in 2011 reports on autopsies of 30 gunshot victims struck with high-velocity (greater than 2500 fps) rifle bullets.[25] In all 30 cases, autopsies revealed injuries distant from the main wound channel due to hydrostatic shock. The authors determined that the lungs and chest are the most susceptible to distant wounding, followed by the abdomen. The authors conclude:"
Hydrostatic shock
Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact. There...
I quit shooting deers many years ago but remember seeing red goo when I opened deer chests, like lungs. My self-imposed range(distance) maximum for shooting deers is 400 yards. Most of the deers shot were hit with bullets having impact velocities of 2500 (plus/minus 100 fps). Abdominal contents (guts) were also affected to some degree. Death usually occured within 5 seconds and 50 feet (distance). No doubt many readers have had much more experience than I with shooting deers & other game animals and can present more factual accounts..
Moving on to to the rodents. Upon sustaining hits with bullets having velocities of 2500 fps (+- 100 fps) most of the rodents had a tendency to burst open regardless of bullet construction. Like the Iraq studies that examined hits with FMJ bullets. With impact velicities of less than 2500 fps (+- 100 fps) bullet consruction becomes important - like using bullets having the term "explosive". High velocity hits on bigger rodents & yotes with high velocity "explosive" bullets often had a single entry wound and no complete penetration, I guess hydrostatic shock occured because death was immediate. I wanted to have my biggest rodent/rockchuck stuffed (mounted) for display in my bullet room but wifey did not approve. A hit from a 6mm 105 AMax at 300 yards at about 2500 fps impact velocity killed it quick but with only a tiny entry and only slighly bigger exit. I expected to see the rodent burst open. Many years before another chuck was hit with a 6.5 140 grain Si GK at just under 500 and burst open - my guess is that the bullet passed thru the chuck & blew up when it hit rock that was in contact with the rodent. Hits with my most used bullet, .224 75 ELDM @ 3250 fps MV have over 2000 fps impact velocites up to 600 and swat small rodents down and most often do not make any of them burst open. The 6mm 87 Vmax from the 6mm AI at about 3,400 fps MV makes most rodents burst open. I'm guessing the bullet spin rate that remains constant might have an effect. I gave up on my 6mm-06 project as things got so hot with 8 twist, 87 Vmax's & big charges of 4831 type powders & did not produce more destruction than the 6 Ackley. Hits on steel make bullet dust fly in all directions, water in puddles splashes up feet away from hit, all this energy would occur in a hit on a bigger rodent.
Wound cavitation is also a factor. More cavitation has been observed with higher velocity 55 grain bullets than slower 62 grain bullets.
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COBrad
Well-Known Member
Brother I usually stay out of p!$$ing matches but you make me curious. Your posts usually seem contentious. Peace, friend.That's right... because if people had humanity, they wouldn't immediately attack other people like mindless animals, such as what happens here every single day. So now because I've shown a light on that behavior, they will turn and attack me rather than alter their behavior. As if somehow there was no other option but to degrade and berate others. Defending the indefensible position of cowardly attacks against an unknown person who was probably quoted out of context who is not here to defend themselves.
The rest of this is not directed at you specifically phorwath.
Anyone that suggests we hold to a higher standard, is mocked relentlessly.
Anyone that joins the dogpile is celebrated.
What a sad society we have become. You're all better than you're acting.
Make no mistake. I don't judge people. I judge their behavior. You will have no success trying to convince me that tearing other people down is acceptable. ESPECIALLY people that aren't here to defend themselves. Does insulting absent people make some of you feel super intelligent? I read the OP and my first though was "Who said that? I'd like to read or hear what this person is referring to." I'm trying to lift people up and evolve their thinking, rather than accept knee-jerk impulsive reactions which are likely taken out of context. If you don't believe that, then put me on ignore. If encouragement to STOP insulting people makes you upset at me, if what I say convicts you, maybe you should think hard about that.
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Idaho Lefty
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2018
- Messages
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@ Mark,..Phorwath - this is the most plausible explanation I have read thus far. Now if I could only get the right shot timing down, those deer wouldn't take the death dash into the deepest ravine or thickest briar patch in the area.
USE,.. Elite / Classic, Hunters or, H-VLD Bergers at, "Warp Speed",. there's, NO,. "Dashing" into, Ravines !
Roy Weatherby,.. TRAINED,. Me ! .270 WBY,.. 130's at,.. "Warp Speed" !
PS : @ COBrad, I'm still "smarting" over Orkan's Trophy or NOT, 14" Antelope "Judging" post, so I personally, don't "Follow" Him, anymore !
And to Everyone, PSS,.. The .338 Win Mag., DOESN'T NEED, "Hydrostatic Shock", to, Kill !
It's the, Big Bullet, thick Jacket / Deep Penetration,.. LOSE lots of, "Chit",.. THEORY !
I'm,.. Out !
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Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Did not want to read 9 pages of bickering haha…is this expert Nate Foster at Ballistic Studies?
dfanonymous
Well-Known Member
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RockyMtnUT
Well-Known Member
Part of this is because people come to this site to enjoy hunting and related items. Some come here to push business and Jesus.
That boy must have the worst case of arthritis in his elbow from patting himself on the back.
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COBrad
Well-Known Member
I get that he's on here as a business but my guess is probably not doing himself any favors. I wouldn't do business with an outfit that raises so much heck with everyone on a simple hunting forum.
RockyMtnUT
Well-Known Member
He is a sponsor so please be respectful
This has been my personal theory as well. Hadn't realized anyone out there had written about it.
Thanks for sharing.
