Long range bow hunting

[J E Custom]

Long range bow

7mm

This being a long range hunting site I will try and make a
comparison between rifles and bows.

Back in the 70's archery was going through some major changes
in technology's ( compound bows with cams, arrows made of
all sorts of materals, releases ,etc ) All designed to increase range
and efficiency.

Ethics was a big issue then and there were lots of opinions about
the issue of long shots with a bow.

So being ethical I decided to do some flight test for Accuracy,
Distance,Velocity and energy and hear are "my" results.

With the bow set at 70 lbs (considered average for hunting) max
distance was 345 yards with 500gr arrows and 430 yards with 700
gr arrows.

100yrd groups= 500gr arrows 10" to 12" and 8" to 10" for the 700gr
arrow.

60yrd groups= 5'' to 6" for both arrow weights.

Arrows dont have a lot of energy (60 to 70 ftlbs) but have quite a bit
of momentum so penetration is effected by weight( the heavier the arrow
the better the penetration with the same broadhead and bow weight.

So it appears that bows and rifles have something in common as far as
long range (heavy is better for wind,accuracy and distance.

I feel that a 100yrd shot with a bow is like a 1000yrd shot with a rifle
possible but very difficult.

I feel that 1'' 5 shot group per 10yrds of distance ( 5''@ 50yrds, 6''@ 60yrds)
is max

Heavy arrows 50 or 60yrds max on elk.

Light arrows 30 to 40yrds max on elk

The same goes for deer size game.

I have taken over 150 big game animals with my bow and even
though I shoot 90 to 95lbs of bow weight and 700+ grain arrows I still
limit my self to these distances.

These are my limits and every one must set there own based on ability,
equipment and game to be hunted.

Just my 2 cents
J E CUSTOM

 

[sscoyote]

I shoot pr. dog some with an old Matthews/2016's/blunt tips, some field points. I've gotten out to 60 yds. rarely.

Had a sweet time shooting a rockchuck this last elk season with an old Hoyt Huntmaster recurve/some el cheapo broadhead i had laying around (perfect when the quarry's buried in rocks). Shot him at 30 yds. laying on top of a rock...but he made below the rocks, and i didn't recover him. I'll get 1 this neat year tho.

 

[Kaveman]

7mm

This being a long range hunting site I will try and make a
comparison between rifles and bows.

Back in the 70's archery was going through some major changes
in technology's ( compound bows with cams, arrows made of
all sorts of materals, releases ,etc ) All designed to increase range
and efficiency.

Ethics was a big issue then and there were lots of opinions about
the issue of long shots with a bow.

So being ethical I decided to do some flight test for Accuracy,
Distance,Velocity and energy and hear are "my" results.

With the bow set at 70 lbs (considered average for hunting) max
distance was 345 yards with 500gr arrows and 430 yards with 700
gr arrows.

100yrd groups= 500gr arrows 10" to 12" and 8" to 10" for the 700gr
arrow.

60yrd groups= 5'' to 6" for both arrow weights.

Arrows dont have a lot of energy (60 to 70 ftlbs) but have quite a bit
of momentum so penetration is effected by weight( the heavier the arrow
the better the penetration with the same broadhead and bow weight.

So it appears that bows and rifles have something in common as far as
long range (heavy is better for wind,accuracy and distance.

I feel that a 100yrd shot with a bow is like a 1000yrd shot with a rifle
possible but very difficult.

I feel that 1'' 5 shot group per 10yrds of distance ( 5''@ 50yrds, 6''@ 60yrds)
is max

Heavy arrows 50 or 60yrds max on elk.

Light arrows 30 to 40yrds max on elk

The same goes for deer size game.

I have taken over 150 big game animals with my bow and even
though I shoot 90 to 95lbs of bow weight and 700+ grain arrows I still
limit my self to these distances.

These are my limits and every one must set there own based on ability,
equipment and game to be hunted.

Just my 2 cents
J E CUSTOM

J E C,

could you expound a bit on your research. What type of bow, what type of cam/wheel (if any), what limb material, what limb configuration (2 or 4 limbs, straight or recurve, parallel or perpendicular, length), riser information (material, length, brace height), string and cable information (steel or fast flight cables, axle or yoke style cable suspension, hard or soft yoke, nocking point height, was a loop used (hard or soft))what type of arrow rest, arrow information (material, length, outside diameter, wall thickness, weight and type of point, fletching material, straight, angled or helicle (right or left), manufacturers straightness and weight tolerance), release or fingers, conditions on the day/dates of testing (temperature, elevation, wind speed and direction, shooting direction, cloudy-sunny-clear-precipitation-time of day), angles to achieve max distance with each shaft, date/dates of testing (mm/dd/yyyy), what type of bow shooting device was used to clamp the bow in place for 6 shot group testing.

It is not necessary to include manufacturer names.

I am not stirring the pot, just trying to clarify some of the variables that are a direct impact on the results. These numbers seem a bit soft for modern equipment, particularly the size of the groups at a given distance. All of the equipment we sell in our proshop will out perform the results posted in good conditions and destroy those results in perfect conditions.

That being said, only a handful of the shooters that dawn our door are capable of shooting the 60 and 100 yard groups posted in your research. Again it ALL boils down to shooters ability and confidence. Thanks.

 

[outdooraddict]

J E Custom, I agree I am new to the whole long range rifle thing but I have been shooting archery since I could walk and competitivly about as long. I am currently shooting a martin slayr at 94.5 lbs with a 480gr arrow which gives me 313fps inturn I get approx 104 lbs of energy. I know I can keep a 3in 3 arrow group at 60yds that would be my absolute max on any game and I probably will never take a shot over 45-50 my longest so far is 42 on a nice 8 point white tail. I would say an average bow hunter should not shoot over 35-40 yds on anything. That is part of bowhunting getting close without spooking them. Alot of guys dont have the skill either not trying to pi55 anyone off but I have seen guys that think there Ted Nugent and cant hit a 8" circle at 20yds. Not kidding either we had a local nature center allow bow hunting to help with the deer population one of the requirements was they had to come to our archery shop and shoot 3 arrows in a 8" target not that i agrred with that but it was there rules. Out of 137 try outs 26 passed I was instantly scared for our deer around here. To many people head to there walmart grab a bow/rifle and a handfull of arrows or box of shells and hit the woods it just scares the crap out of me expecialy as Michigan is the most heavily hunted state an average of 310,000 bow licences each year witch is 7.382 hunters per square mile and its even worse for gun hunting.

 

[J E Custom]

Kaveman & Outdoor

I was not trying to be vague but as I said archery was very basic
in the 60's and 70's so I will try to fill in the blanks.

At the time I was shooting a Jennings arrow Star ( A 4 wheel bow with
20% letoff).

Arrows were wood,alluminum and fiber glass.

Fletched with plastic vanes and feathers.

All test were under hunting conditions (Hand held, hand drawn,broad heads,
no release,peep site & 6 pin site.

I rig'ed up a tennis ball and hung it from a tree so I could shoot close
to 45 degrees and I could use my 10yrd pin to miss the ball but have
a constant aiming point.

There were no cronographs at the time but advertised velocity was
244 ft/sec with a 2216 ,But as I said the only way I had to prove
or disprove anything at the time was to flight test.

Most bows were maxed out at 70 to 75 lbs back then and after shooting
for fred bear about 3 years I had them biuld me a 100 lb bow called
an elephant bow ( It still had wheels ) but 30% let off.

These bows were all strait limb with 2 or 4 wheels and 49" axle to axle
length.

Like ever one else as soon as a new bow came out I had to try one and
even though bows and arrows improved the rules seemed to remain the
same .

My frends and I shot an average of 400 to 500 arrows a day and groups
were smaller than those mentioned in the earlier post (these were worst
case for hunting live game.

There is no question that the new equiptment is better in the hands
of a good bowhunter but the downside to all this speed and flat shooting
is that it encourages some of the new shooters to shoot a few arrows and
go hunting.

This sport requires lot's of practice and conditioning just like long range
shooting and the right combination of arrow and broadhead for clean
one shot kills.

And as for as the energy a 22 long rifle has 312ft/lbs 3 times that of
your arrow at 104 ft/lbs and is very capable on large dangerous game
but you would not go after a elk with a 22 . and the reason the bow is
effecitve is momentum .

That is why I prefer heavy arrows, with broadheads no larger than 1 3/8
dia.

"Case in point" If you hunt in africa most countrys require arrows that
weight a minimum of 1000grs and the bow must be at least 100lbs draw
weight.

I am very proud of my loss rate( only one mule deer and one white tail
out of almost 200 big game killed) so I will continue to use heavy arrows
and as much weight as possible with good accurace.

Just like in long range shooting I prefer heavy bullets on long shots over
lite fast bullets.

I have been shooting bows over 45 years and started with a recurve and
saw the first compound bow ( an allen compound ) and though it was ugly
at the time .

I hope this helped
J E CUSTOM

 

[Kaveman]

JEC,

Thanks for the information. You have an AWESOME recovery rate. I know of few other archers (or hunters for that matter) with as much success. You truly have figured out what to do.

If you have the time and resources I would be interested in what you would find performing the same tests with a 3-71 and 125gr two blade cut on impact head and a modern single cam bow with a drop away and a release. This arrow setup should yield the 500+gr arrow weight.

 

[aroshtr]

I really didn't mean to offend anyone or get everyone stirred-up, I am not trying to push my limits/ethics on anyone. I appologize to the forum and those offended by my original post. I simply feel that there are some major differences between archery and rifle hunting when it comes to "long range". I just think that archers need to seriously consider these points when setting their personal limits. The equipment and skill level of the archer only play a small part in long range bowhunting. Although great skill/practice and well tuned equipment are needed for long shots... IMHO these factors below preceed accuracy.

Some things to consider:
1. Our arrows flight time is MUCH longer than a rifle bullets path. Thus animals have a chance to move postions before the arrow gets there.
2. The sound of the bow is heard well before the arrow gets to the animal which gives them a cance to "jump the string"
3. Wind drift can be quite significant with arrows. It is also difficult to calculate how much drift we will get (lots of practice is the only way).
4. An archers "effective" kill zone is much smaller than a rifle hunters. No head, neck, high/front shoulder, no broken leg/hip bones to slow the animal enough for a second shot..... you get the idea. There is no room for error!

This is just my $.02.

 

[Roll-Yur-Own]

For my fellow long range bowhunters, I thought I'd list some of my favorite things for reaching out with the sticks...


1. TAP - The Archery Program.
Great program to use with an adjustable sight. Started using it with a single pin Mantis form Trophy Ridge. You take some measurements, chrono your bow (single or offset velocity), put it into your computer. Then you print out the sight tape and dial in single yard increments out to your range. Single velocity is good out to about 70+ yards and offset velocity even further, but I can only go a bit past 70 at my house. Its like dialing in your turrets on a scope.

2. HHA Sight. Awesome sight with 5 ft of fiber optics so low light is hardly a problem. They also make a lens kit with 2, 4, or 6x magnification. I use a 2x with mine. I use the single pin after switching from th trophy ridge. The windage has audible 1/8" clicks. Really a kick butt sight.

3. Limbdriver Rest - a dropaway rest that uses the limb for timing. Idiot proof.

4. FOB - stands for "Fletched only Better"
It replaces the vanes with a round disc that is actually an aerofoil. It pops off when you hit an animal so you can start tracking without worry of where the animal was standing. They make arrows fly super straight.
The downside is that you must have a drop away rest and shooting groups is a challenge because the arrows will hit the FOBs in the target. The solution is to put a cheap walmart target in front of your good target so the arrows pass thru the cheap target and pop the FOB's off.

I KNOW it sounds like a gimmick, but they are the real deal. Lots of serious bowhunters are using them. Check out archerytalk.com and see the reviews.
The guy who invented them designed missles for a defense company.

5. Victory Arrows - New company, great arrows.

6. BuckNasty strings - this guy makes awesome strings. About a 10fps increase over factory strings. Sorry I don't have his info, but it can be found on the archery talk sight.

Hope some of this is useful to some of you.

Anybody else have anything to share, I always love to hear about it.

 

[J E Custom]

Kaveman

The two blade will actually go father because of reduced drag
and penetrate better than a punch point, But tends to wind plane
under poor conditions (very windy)

If you can eliminate this problem then it is better on large,tough
game like elk and hogs.

My favorite shot on deer is right through both front sholders, this
takes heavy arrows but the deer cant seem to run and I see him
fall (no tracking).

On elk a two blade cut on impact works great and passes completly
through if placed correctly.

And as far as the bow anything that will improve speed and accuracy
is good.

And not to stir up more controversy but I found that a full helical
feather flech went farther because it stabilized the fastest and
passes through the rest with less effort.

So a drop away rest should be even better.

Thanks
J E CUSTOM

 

[Buffalobob]

Aroshtr

This forum is a strange place that operates on the positive attitude basis and we all see things we do not approve of and sometimes we even do them ourselves and wish later we hadn't. And in the end you are right about the need for practice.

Jim

 

[norsepeak]

41 yard elk. Double lung, pass thru. The arrow went thru so fast, I never found it. Can you say Kinetic Energy!!!!

 

[wyobmf]

Aroshtr

I agree 100% with everything you have stated.
I will not shoot my Bow over 40 yds.
I practice all the way to 50 and can shoot a 6" group at 50.
But my 50 yd pin comes off before the season.
Bowhunting and longrange should not be in the same sentence.
I have hunted for 15 years and have not wounded anything yet and I dont plan on it.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Personally, I am TERRIBLE with a bow, but I saw Ted Nugent shoot an elk at something like 25 yards with a recurve, no sights, then it ran out to 70-something and he dropped one right in there with the other arrow. Excellent instinctive aiming.

 

[400classelk]

Practice

72 yards Whitetail doe. I practice year round out to 120 yards on a glendale full rut buck. 5-8" at 100 yards every time. Wind rain snow practice practice. Mathews switchback LD 70# carbon express maxima hunter 350 weight forward arrows with blazer vanes,G5 montec 100 grn brodheads and bushnell 1500 arc rangefinder. You have to no when its ethicall to shoot longrange I would not shoot a deer at 30 yards if it whas aleart and looking at me but would have no problem shooting 80-100 yards on a feeding or beded animal.
If you practice regularly at 100 yards, a 60-yard shot will seem simple.
You should be fully confident in making the shot once it's presented. Here's a quote from Dan Evans
"I practice regularly from 120 to 150 yards," Dan Evans, inventor of the Trophy Taker rest and long-range shooter extraordinaire.

Evans has a 180-yard range behind his shop along with 3-D animals. "I like to shoot at long range because it forces me to
focus," he continues. "If you make a mistake at 100 yards, you miss the whole bale. The follow-through is critical. Even at long
distances, you must keep your form until the arrow hits the target. Puting an arrow in the bull at that distance builds confidence,​

especially when you get a 40-yard shot." Very good artical on long range shooting at the trophy taker web site called-
Set Up for Extreme Accuracy. The problem is a guy or gal starts practicing a week before deer season and you end up with animals running around with an arrow sticking out of it. A animal wounded with a rifle at a 1000 yards or 100 yards with a bow is still a wounded animal. You should be fully confident in making the shot. practice