200 gr berger hybrids

[12valvetater]

I've seen rave reviews on the 215 and 230 bergers when it comes to hunting bullets. I keep searching but haven't found anything related to the 200 hybrid though. I shoot both a 300 winchester magnum and a .30-338 winchester magnum but both of them have 11 twist barrels and won't stabilize the 215s. The 200 hybrids shoot awesome in my 300 and I am torn between them and 200 accubonds for an upcoming elk hunt. I have been shooting 168 hunting vld bergers in my 30-338 for whitetail. They shoot really well but don't preform as well as I'd like if a bone is hit. Just shooting through the lungs works well and I've never had one get away, but they come apart almost too fast.

 

[Rick Richard]

Shoot what works best out of your rifle and what you have the most confidence with. A well placed round is way more important than attempting to decide between the two brands mentioned, and between 200 grains versus 215.

 

[4xforfun]

Have you tried the 215's out of an 11 twist, or just assuming that they will not work? Try them....I have three 11 twist tubes that fall short according to the Berger calculator with the 215 Hybrid that actually shoot bugholes up close and are very accurate at 1000 yards plus in my 1K comp platforms. Same with the 12 twist and the 200 Hybrid.....shoots great out of my 1K comp gun.

 

[12valvetater]

What elevation are you at?

 

[4xforfun]

What elevation are you at?

900 feet

 

[ohiohunter]

I think you forgot a zero!

 

[4xforfun]

I think you forgot a zero!

Nope......I shoot them out to 1000 yards on my home range..952, out to a mile on steel out of my hunting shack...about 1200 feet, and at the IBS 1000 yard range in Harris, MN...about 900 feet.

Tod

 

[JTB]

We shot a nice bull this year using 200gr hybrid in 300 WM. Was able to get fairly close but the bull collapsed on impact entering just behind the shoulder. It was a good thing since it would have only taken a few steps to send him down the canyon. The jacket was imbedded in the hide opposite side with an exit wound about 6 inches below the jacket location. Appears the lead separated from the jacket and opened the exit channel. Very little meat was damaged. No stabilization issues at 3000 ft using 11 twist

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Have you tried the 215's out of an 11 twist, or just assuming that they will not work? Try them....I have three 11 twist tubes that fall short according to the Berger calculator with the 215 Hybrid that actually shoot bugholes up close and are very accurate at 1000 yards plus in my 1K comp platforms. Same with the 12 twist and the 200 Hybrid.....shoots great out of my 1K comp gun.

I don't think the Berger calculator says whether or not they will shoot accurately, it indicates whether or not the bullet is fully stable. When not fully stable there is a degrading of the bc, and from my testing a lack of terminal performance. Under stabilized bullets will shoot very accurately down to about 1.2sg or 1.1sg. This depends on the bullet design. My point is accuracy is not an indicator for terminal performance.


Steve

 

[4xforfun]

I don't think the Berger calculator says whether or not they will shoot accurately, it indicates whether or not the bullet is fully stable. When not fully stable there is a degrading of the bc, and from my testing a lack of terminal performance. Under stabilized bullets will shoot very accurately down to about 1.2sg or 1.1sg. This depends on the bullet design. My point is accuracy is not an indicator for terminal performance.


Steve

Fine, but when I punch Berger's G1 #'s into my Infinity program the drops out to a mile are as spot on as anything I have shot . Those numbers match my Shooter app. also. And ALL shoot small at 1K...proven at IBS 1000K matches with wood to prove it.

So, if it is true that BC drops with an under stabilized bullet, it isn't showing up with the THREE 11 twists and the 215 and the 1-12 twist shooting the 200 Hybrid in my world.

BUT...I also have a 14 twist 22-250 Imp that will not stabilize the 55 grain Nostler Balistic tip, and Bergers calculator conferms it. The difference is the 30 cals are "marginal" and the 22 cal is "unstable" (around .79). But, how many 55 grain Balistic tips have been fired out of a 14 twist bbl with great success?

I'm just sayin.....try them.

Tod

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Fine, but when I punch Berger's G1 #'s into my Infinity program the drops out to a mile are as spot on as anything I have shot . Those numbers match my Shooter app. also. And ALL shoot small at 1K...proven at IBS 1000K matches with wood to prove it.

So, if it is true that BC drops with an under stabilized bullet, it isn't showing up with the THREE 11 twists and the 215 and the 1-12 twist shooting the 200 Hybrid in my world.

BUT...I also have a 14 twist 22-250 Imp that will not stabilize the 55 grain Nostler Balistic tip, and Bergers calculator conferms it. The difference is the 30 cals are "marginal" and the 22 cal is "unstable" (around .79). But, how many 55 grain Balistic tips have been fired out of a 14 twist bbl with great success?

I'm just sayin.....try them.

Tod

For me I am more concerned with terminal performance and most of my testing is for that. BC runs a long ways back in the list of qualities of a hunting bullet. I digress to Litz on the stability vs bc. My ability to test bc is not nearly as good as his. When it comes to terminal performance there is no doubt that the higher stability bullet will perform much better. Marginally stable bullets have a much higher chance of complete failure and when they preform correctly they don't do as well as when they have a higher stability factor. This I have proven over and over. The more I learn about stability and terminal performance the more I will personally error toward higher stability in my own hunting bullets. I think many of the stories that you hear about bullets failing to perform on animals is due to the stability not the design of the bullet. Few manufactures talk about this. I think that is because there are a lot of bullets marketed for hunting that are marginal for stability. The push for heavier higher bc bullets means they must get longer to gain the weight, making them harder to stabilize.

I have no doubt that your results are solid. So don't take me wrong. I was never questioning your data.

Steve

 

[HARPERC]

Not questioning anybodies experience in either direction, but twist is something I think most of us assume. We order, and buy products that specify a particular twist, and accept it.

I shot a rifle for 30+ years, and only verified twist personally when an unexpected issue (key holes) appeared.

 

[4xforfun]

When it comes to terminal performance there is no doubt that the higher stability bullet will perform much better. Marginally stable bullets have a much higher chance of complete failure and when they preform correctly they don't do as well as when they have a higher stability factor. This I have proven over and over. The more I learn about stability and terminal performance the more I will personally error toward higher stability in my own hunting bullets. I think many of the stories that you hear about bullets failing to perform on animals is due to the stability not the design of the bullet.



Steve

Is your criterion based on weather or not a bullet expands as expected on target? Because I have ZERO testing in that regard. But, then again, I have seen and read about many, many bullet failures that went unexplained on this form and elsewhere.

Good stuff,
Tod

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Is your criterion based on weather or not a bullet expands as expected on target? Because I have ZERO testing in that regard. But, then again, I have seen and read about many, many bullet failures that went unexplained on this form and elsewhere.

Good stuff,
Tod

Yes. Also how long the projectile stays point forward as it penetrates. The higher the stability of the bullet the longer it stays in the proper orientation in penetration. RPM of the bullet degrades very little in flight but as soon as it contacts the target the rpm's drop quickly. The higher they are the longer the bullet stays in the intended orientation. Our first lightbulb moment with this was when we were developing our 80g .243cal bullet. We were doing low vel impact testing with reduced loads. Our test rifle was a 243 win with a 10" twist. The bullet would not open up at 1800fps and we could not get the vel higher with trail boss powder as we were out of case capacity. We had on hand a 6-284 Lapua imp that we were building for a customer. We figured with the larger case capacity we could get the vel up and find the min that that bullet would work. We loaded the rifle and shot it into the test media and had the same 1800fps vel from the 243. Disappointed we dug the bullet out expecting the same result and found a perfectly deformed bullet. Difference was a 7" twist. Only difference in the test was the stability of the bullet. It was very marginal with the .243 and above the 1.5sg that is considered fully stable with the 6-284. Lots of light bulbs went on that day. Since then we have paid close attn. to the stability of our low vel impact testing. The higher the stability the farther the bullets will penetrate before they upset and start to flip. Almost all bullets just before they stop in the media will start to tumble. Only makes sense as the rpms slow down. When they are very well stabilized they will often stop still in perfect orientation.

I used to hunt with marginally stable bullets because they shot very accurately to very long range. I had some animals that I had taken that showed less than perfect terminal performance but just did not give it a lot of thought other than I thought the bullet was not working as well I thought it should.

With our testing I have come to the conclusion that 1.5sg is not fully stable for terminal performance but really a minimum for terminal performance. If a guy can get above 1.5sg and closer to 2sg terminal performance increases. So like all other things it is a give and a take. You can get much better bullet performance form the liter bullet but give up some bc to reach out there. I have changed my personal equipment to get the best terminal performance possible and adjust my effective hunting range accordingly.

As a bullet manufacture I fear a customer having less than good terminal performance than I do not having enough bc to reach as far. Impact at distance can be calculated, what happens when the bullet strikes is no longer in our control. I just know that the chances of it not doing what I expect go down greatly the higher the stability gets.

Steve