BOTW Divorces Berger & Marries Nosler

[bowhunter42]

I'm pretty sure if they have shot them its been at paper and steel only. To really prove a bullet and know how it works on game you need to kill a lot of animals in a lot of different situations and conditions. So you can keep your ocean front property. They are definitely getting the cart before the horse. The original AB has been proven but nobody has truly proven the LR version yet as far as performance on game. ...some people buy koolaid based on who is making it NOT what it tastes like...

Fair enough, and time will tell. Im sure people were saying the same thing about bergers at first too. Actually if I remember correctly berger was saying that about their own bullet, but it was the longrange shooters/hunters that ignored what berger was saying and proved that the bullet worked great as a hunting bullet. I have used the accu-bond for several years before switching to Berger, and im pretty sure from my own experience that the new bullet will do what they say it will, I am a little skeptical on the velocity range of it tho, I mean they advertise down to 1300 fps and it will still expand as designed. If thats true well that does raise the bar quite high. Only time and real world testing and proving will tell for sure. I do know im looking forward to getting my hands on some and trying them out!

 

[6.5shaggy]

I'm going to step out on a limb here, and probably on some toes as well. I've been shooting long range for over 10 years and have gone through 6 different rifles, used all different kinds of bullets, brass, powder, etc. I use what I use for the reasons I use them. I am still learning, just as all of us who take this sport seriously can attest to.
I am not going to praise or blame manufacturers for doing what they do, sell products. I think the point may be that the TV shows are doing the same thing, sell themselves; but, I think the current gun crazy crowd has become the focus group and left us old salts thinking "***?". All these TV shows try to tell you if you watch every week and visit their sponsors, you will be able clear rooms like a SEAL, take out 3 armed men in a dark alley with a pocket knife, and drop an elk or grizzly bear at 1000 yards with a single shot every time. And too many people believe it's that simple. No practice, no preperation, just do exactly as they say and TADA... SUCCESS. If this philosophy were true, after 30 minutes of the Military channel, I could launch cruise missiles. Hell, watching porn will not make you a porn star.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Am I the only one who has no clue *** BOTW stands for, or what yall are talking about?

 

[Magnumitis]

It means Best of the West.

 

[Joe King]

Am I the only one who has no clue *** BOTW stands for, or what yall are talking about?

LMAO probably BOTW = Best of the West

One thing that keeps popping up in my mind, has anyone ever checked to see how far down range 1300fps occurs with a given bullet in their rifle? I'm thinking it's pretty much moot as exceptional few can read conditions well enough to get to the range where your bullet slows to 1300fps, only the very best can do it where their bullet reaches 1800fps with a high degree of 1st shot hit capability on a 10" gong.

In my mind when you consider cost, lesser degree of bullet to bullet consistency Berger is still light years ahead of Nosler in the long range game. Not meant as knock on Nosler I still use em religiously in a select few of my rifles.

 

[BrentM]

Wait, what.....I can't be a porn star by just watching? Crap

 

[MudRunner2005]

I use Noslers and Bergers, and have been using Nosler Accubonds for years now. IMO, the Accubonds are hard to beat for close-range hunting (within 300 yards), from my experiences.

I recently discovered the Berger VLD's, and am VERY impressed with their consistancy and grouping. I wish there was a way to test the impact and wound cavities in some ballistics gel @ say, 100 yards, out of the same caliber, same rifle, same load, just different bullets to get a true expansion difference to prove once and for-all which one is better. B/c I am really curious as to which one is the better hunting bullet. I've first-hand used the Accubonds to take game, but have not had the chance yet, with the Berger VLD's.

 

[Fox Hunter]

Like some here at LRH, I 'discovered' the long range bug through BOTW. But like some suggested earlier, a day or two on LRH will get one more to study than a year of watching BOTW 'infomercials.'

I shoot Berger and Nosler ...... and some Hornady and some Sierra and so on. They each have their place.

 

[6.5shaggy]

I have great respect for a company spending great amounts of money on R&D and even marketing to provide a quality product to comsumers. I use Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, Speer and even Barnes in given rifles. However, I use Berger exclusively for for long range. I use all thes bullets based on my known usage and performance, not on marketing, and definately not because someone uses them in their $7000 factory rifle package on TV and screams like a schoolgirl every time they make a shot.
I don't mean this as a personal attack on the BOTW crew. I think the TV producers, whoever they might be, are producing shows for the uninformed and gullible gun crazy public. Example, my opinion (I know..2 cents worth) American Guns = fake boobs, inflated gun values and unrealistic explosions from bullet impact, Sons of Guns = soap opera with guns and more unrealistic explosions, Personal Defense TV= how old guys and women with limited gun knowledge can become tactical experts, Best of the West= use my gear and never miss again. Most of us are simply not in the focus group any more, and for good reason. A show about advanced ballistics and wind compensation would be educational, however, quite "mathy" and dull.
As a final note, if Berger didn't have it right, why do all the other mfgs now have similar products, even Barnes. I am going to try some of these other lines and hope to find success at a better price point, but until performance is proven over time and various situations, I will continue to use Berger for extended range.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

OK... couldn't hold back any longer... Not going to comment on BOTW, etc.

But anyone who thinks the LR AB's BC's are accurate is drinking some serious koolaid.

One example....

210 LR AB, G1 .730, G7 .366, OAL 1.550"

215 Hybrid, G1 .696, G7 .356, OAL 1.564

C'mon fellas, what does that tell ya?

That tells me either the Berger BC is underestimated or the AB BC is over inflated. Any guesses as to which knowing the competence, expertise and forthright professionalism of the Berger guys?

I'm guessing the actual 210 LR AB BC's are probably about .67 and .345. Still not bad, but I guarantee you they aren't going to ballistically out perform the 215 Hybrids. Any takers???

As for opening down to 1300 fps, I guess time will tell. That does extend their "effective range" if true, but lower velocities also result in lower momentum and energy.

All that said, when I first joined this site there were a lot of guys using the old AB's for LR shooting and hunting and doing well with them but of course not with the ballistic performance of Bergers, JLK's, SMK's, etc . These new LR bullets are a big step up for LR enthusiasts. But they are what they are and they are not what they are not.

 

[Triple BB]

I'm more than willing to give Nosler the benefit. Its not like they're some Johnny come lately pimping a completely unknown product. I started shooting Partitions 30 years ago and began reloading Accubonds when they first came out 10 years ago or so. No complaints here with any of their products. I have a buddy who's a manager at a big box sporting goods retailer. He's supposed to grab me several boxes of these new long rangers when they show up. I'm anxious to give them a try...

 

[cohunter14]

OK... couldn't hold back any longer... Not going to comment on BOTW, etc.

But anyone who thinks the LR AB's BC's are accurate is drinking some serious koolaid.

One example....

210 LR AB, G1 .730, G7 .366, OAL 1.550"

215 Hybrid, G1 .696, G7 .356, OAL 1.564

C'mon fellas, what does that tell ya?

That tells me either the Berger BC is underestimated or the AB BC is over inflated. Any guesses as to which knowing the competence, expertise and forthright professionalism of the Berger guys?

I'm guessing the actual 210 LR AB BC's are probably about .67 and .345. Still not bad, but I guarantee you they aren't going to ballistically out perform the 215 Hybrids. Any takers???

As for opening down to 1300 fps, I guess time will tell. That does extend their "effective range" if true, but lower velocities also result in lower momentum and energy.

All that said, when I first joined this site there were a lot of guys using the old AB's for LR shooting and hunting and doing well with them but of course not with the ballistic performance of Bergers, JLK's, SMK's, etc . These new LR bullets are a big step up for LR enthusiasts. But they are what they are and they are not what they are not.

You are probably right, but we won't know for sure until we get some people trying them out. But even if they are not exactly as advertised, they should still give Berger a run for their money. It will at least provide hunters with some different terminal options with some very comparable BC's (more than likely). I mean the difference in the 215 hybrid compared to the current 210 accubond isn't that significant. If you push both 3,000fps, you are talking about a difference of 2 MOA of drop at 1,000 yards and 6" more wind drift with a 5mph wind. All in all, I'm guessing that this closes that gap and maybe flips it in Nosler's direction, but in the end it is not going to be as significant as people make it sound.

 

[cohunter14]

By the way, if you run the numbers on the published BC's of the 210 LR Accubond compared to the 215 hybrid, you are talking a difference of .3 MOA of drop and .7" of wind drift (5mph) at 1,000 yards (the Accubond would have the advantage). Why is it so hard to believe that this is possible?

 

[Magnumitis]

As a final note, if Berger didn't have it right, why do all the other mfgs now have similar products, even Barnes.

I wouldn't say all the other companies have similar products to Berger now. Yes, Barnes and Nosler came out with higher bc bullets but they didn't change them to be similar with Berger. Hornady isn't far behind with their new long range bullet, although I have no idea how it will be constructed. It was a no-brainer for the 'other' companies to come out with higher bc offerings because that number is the only thing some people look for when they're buying bullets. Just take Best of the West for example. They're already bragging about the listed bc before they have even tested them. Well, I can't say that for sure but since Porter said, "they just received a few" five days ago... it's safe to assume that.