Wolf kill pics.... Trophy Bull Elk.....

[HARPERC]

I've been looking through some of the literature available from our neighbors to the north, and trying to put numbers to some of the comments/questions. Topgun posted a quote by Dr. Fanning that correctly identifies wolf density, and who controls it as the core issue. If the densities agreed to at the the beginning of this mess had been held to we wouldn't have this thread. If those numbers had been adhered to, wolves in those numbers were present to begin with, and transplant was not only unnecessary, but a violation of the Endangered Species Act .
As to the question of why herds in the Kootenais are doing well is low wolf densities. I can't find a number specific to the Kootenais, but stumbled on the Augmentation Plan for the Purcells-South Mountain Caribou Population (read Woodland same ones we have in Id/Wa). It's dated 17 February 2010
The plan outlines recovering and maintaining this herd. The herd had a rapid decline in the 1990's secondary to predation. Principally wolves and cougars. Some predator control was done some stability returned, but now wolf populations are back to where they were then approx. 10/1000 km sq. about 386 sq miles. The plan calls for eliminating quotas on cougars especially the females, and reducing wolves to 1/1000 km sq. Budget of about $798,000 for 3 years then periodically as needed. Basically bait piles established in large cut blocks, and aerial gunning was the main method. It's a very lengthy study, it will take a bunch more reading, but I think I got this basic part correct.
Also, took a peek at the BC Mountain Hunter Record Book and the current number 1 wolf scores 17 and 14/16 ths inches on the skull. I've hunted with the folks that killed this and other 17" wolves. Big dogs. A Pope and Young Black Bear is 18" I believe. At any rate they are pretty serious about their wolfing. A 125 pounder is a big wolf. 145 huge 175 is probably the top. Do I believe in the 200lb wolf, no I don't. Do I believe in the possibility that the HYBRIDS dumped down country roads when they proved lousy pets may have approached this size yes I do. The wolf folks also had their own amateur transplant program that predates the Government by a couple of decades.
The pictures I've seen of irremotus skulls are different than occidentalis. Will the exceptionally large specimens of the Timber Wolf beat the average size for a Mackenzie Valley? Yes. Has the protein rich diet of Yellowstone bumped the average size? Probably.
The Audobon society was one of the groups filing suit to STOP the introduction of these wolves. When I see groups of folks from opposite ends of the spectrum like Wyoming Agriculture and the Audobon Society on the same side of lawsuit I tend to pay attention. Irremotus did exist.
Wolves worldwide vary in configuration, the Indian wolf is kind of goofy looking. They seem to share the same nature, and wherever their "densities" aren't held in check the same issues occur over and over. Wyoming's plan is not radical it's actually the plan with the most science. BC has a year round season, as I believe does Alberta. We are dealing with an animal that plans to "effectively control" it's numbers unfortunately look a lot like extermination if you prefer the mythology to the biology.

 

[jmden]

Adam Henry Award - Tony Mayer, Elk Poacher - The Hog Blog

Arrgghh...come on Tony! I don't recall hearing about this previously. What a shame in so many ways.

Thanks, Chuck for the info about this.

 

[jmden]

Ok we all know that wolves kill and eat ungulates and we all know that a very hard core anti wolf guy "Robert Fanning" is not going say anything positive about wolves.

Fanning is 'anti-wolf' I would think, due to seeing what the abuse to the ESA and wolf introdution has done to many ranchers. In his shoes, I would guess you would be the same, no?

At the same time you have the extreme pro wolf side that says they should still be on ESA list and most of these people also are against hunting all together. There were several years where none of the wolf pups in yellowstone survived because of parvo and either mange. Also the extreme pro side claims ranchers and anti's somehow unleashed parvo and mange inside the park. Also you do have pack to pack confrontations and lots of wolves get killed that way.

So...what is your point?

Anyone who has been around wildlife for any period of time can see with there own two eyes how messed up the eco system is. Man has taken away mother natures ability to mange itself.

That shows some very deep philosphical roots with that kind of thinking. Do you believe that you are part of 'mother nature', as you call it?

Take for instance on the Oregon coast someone had the idea to farm a rodent called a Nutria and when they did not make the money like with the mink farms they just openned the cages and set them free and for about 10 years they reeked havoc on the dikes and the native rodents, muskrat and beaver. But little did anyone this rodent that was brought up from South America could not take some of the cold temps that would hit the coast every now and then and with trappers and hunters going after them pretty soon things started getting back to normal.

Aren't you saying then that 'mother nature' at least in part helped take care of this issue? BTW, I've got a couple of these living not more than 100 yards from where I am typing right now. Yeah, man can screw stuff up! Just like artificially injecting wolves into the west and artificially keeping their numbers high and the damage is clear and spreading.

The same can be said for wolves, they won't stay in an area where there is not food to support them.

Yes, they just move onto the next elk herd and kill it off, partly for food and partly for sport killing.

Now some of y'ou may call me names and that I am a pro wolfer, I hunt big game and have all my life. Wildlife can adapt to different situations better then some will admit or think. Did I harvest a mule deer last year....No .... and yes there are lots of wolves in the area I hunted, but I am not blaming the wolves as the deer have learned and changed their system.

How exactly have the deer 'learned and changed their system'? I'm simply curious here. But, can you tell us, over the past few years, if the deer herd population where you hunt has changed and what has happened to the hunter harvest for same?

Something that seems funny to me is you bring up poaching and a few people will get upset and most of the anti's advocate SSS. Just a couple a years ago a couple of hard core anti wolf guys got busted here in Idaho for poaching elk, if you didn't have about it was Tony Mayer from save our elk website and Rex Rammell.

Not sure who 'you' is. But I don't reacal advocating poaching myself if you mean me.

Everyone knows SSS is alive and well and has been for many years and we all know that lots of deer and elk are still poached here in Idaho alone. My main concern is that the powers that be and thats if they would ever tell the truth keep an acurate as they can number of wolves because if too many are killed then they go back on the ESA list and it will be many years before the states will get control back.

Definitely a concern and one reason the ESA needs to be fundamentally changed. At this point, with how liberal courts have ruled on it, it is little more than 'playground bully' in how it is being applied by government and extreme environmental groups.

Preserving our 2nd amendment right and our rights to continue to hunt is very important.

Amen to that!

I know there will never be any common ground between the two sides and the few people that are in the middle will not say anything for fear of harrassment and flaming messages and emails. You have to admit in this day and age with the internet things can get changed around in a quick hurry. Just because its on the internet does not mean its the truth or really happened. Remember you say potatoe and I say potato. Its nice to have a forum like this where just the mention of not being an anti wolf person doesn't get you kicked off like other forums I have seen. Thank you Len

And they shouldn't get kicked off as long as the discussion can stay relatively civil and the best facts as we know them are being discussed and folks are willing to realize that they are wrong or have given information that is wrong. It happens...we're all human.

Replies in bold above in your message. Very curious on your take on the deer/wolf interaction in the area you hunt. Do you hunt elk?

Jon

 

[elkaholic]

Chuck....I respect your right to voice your opinion, but here is where I differ. As has already been noted; these animals are not the same wolves that once inhabited the NW. Therefore, even if we didn't already have enough predation from man, bears, cougars, yes and even coyotes, we don't need MORE competition which creates an UNBALANCE in everything that has been done for the last 100 years. This would be akin to bringing in Siberian tigers because cougars are not large enough or plentiful enough.
You also stated that wolves will not stay where there is not enough food source. Well put! They continue to decimate one area up here and then move over to the next drainage and do the same. Trying to manage wolves in Idaho using the current methods of hunting and trapping, will NEVER reduce the populations sufficiently. This is why the IDFG is considering aerial management (if you know what I mean)! The truth is, part of what you say is true concerning man vs nature. Times have changed and we do have a lot more people encroaching in what was once nature so we have to make decisions that were not necessary 200 years ago. The question becomes, where do people come first and where do animals come first? We have already seen the affects of spotted owls, snail darters, shinner minnows, etc., etc. I have no problem with Canadien wolves "in Canada"! AS Bigngreen has already stated, "name something TRULY positive that has become of introducing (not reintroducing) these animals"! As I stated previously, I have spent most of my 65 years in the woods as a forester and hunter and love and respect animals probably more than most! At some point, we have to get back to commen sense. IMO. Thank you for your input......Rich

 

[jmden]

I've been looking through some of the literature available from our neighbors to the north, and trying to put numbers to some of the comments/questions. Topgun posted a quote by Dr. Fanning that correctly identifies wolf density, and who controls it as the core issue. If the densities agreed to at the the beginning of this mess had been held to we wouldn't have this thread. If those numbers had been adhered to, wolves in those numbers were present to begin with, and transplant was not only unnecessary, but a violation of the Endangered Species Act .
A the question of why herds in the Kootenais are doing is low wolf densities. I can't find a number specific to the Kootenais, but stumbled on the Augmentation Plan for the Purcells-South Mountain Caribou Population (read Woodland same ones we have in Id/Wa). It's dated 17 February 2010
The plan outlines recovering and maintaining this herd. The herd had a rapid decline in the 1990's secondary to predation. Principally wolves and cougars. Some predator control was done some stability returned, but now wolf populations are back to where they were then approx. 10/1000 km sq. about 386 sq miles. The plan calls for eliminating quotas on cougars especially the females, and reducing wolves to 1/1000 km sq. Budget of about $798,000 for 3 years then periodically as needed. Basically bait piles established in large cut blocks, and aerial gunning was the main method. It's a very lengthy study, it will take a bunch more reading, but I think I got this basic part correct.
Also, took a peek at the BC Mountain Hunter Record Book and the current number 1 wolf scores 17 and 14/16 ths inches on the skull. I've hunted with the folks that killed this and other 17" wolves. Big dogs. A Pope and Young Black Bear is 18" I believe. At any rate they are pretty serious about their wolfing. A 125 pounder is a big wolf. 145 huge 175 is probably the top. Do I believe in the 200lb wolf, no I don't. Do I believe in the possibility that the HYBRIDS dumped down country roads when they proved lousy pets may have approached this size yes I do. The wolf folks also had their own amateur transplant program that predates the Government by a couple of decades.
The pictures I've seen of irremotus skulls are different than occidentalis. Will the exceptionally large specimens of the Timber Wolf beat the average size for a Mackenzie Valley? Yes. Has the protein rich diet of Yellowstone bumped the average size? Probably.
The Audobon society was one of the groups filing suit to STOP the introduction of these wolves. When I see groups of folks from opposite ends of the spectrum like Wyoming Agriculture and the Audobon Society on the same side of lawsuit I tend to pay attention. Irremotus did exist.
Wolves worldwide vary in configuration, the Indian wolf is kind of goofy looking. They seem to share the same nature, and wherever their "densities" aren't held in check the same issues occur over and over. Wyoming's plan is not radical it's actually the plan with the most science. BC has a year round season, as I believe does Alberta. We are dealing with an animal that plans to "effectively control" it's numbers unfortunately look a lot like extermination if you prefer the mythology to the biology.

Interesting...thanks for taking the time to do that research.

 

[freebird63]

Thank you Rich as I respect your opinion also. Lets hope that the powers that be can tweak the management plan enough to equals the wildlife populations and we continue to have many hunting opportunities whether its big game or predators. I have attended the wolf management meetings here in Boise and it seems every time IDFG talks about the Lolo zone they are placing the blame on something else.
I enjoy reading everyone's opinions but sometimes I have to voice my opinion. Kudos Rich.

 

[bman73]

I don't think the Canadian experience is different than ours. It's a bit difficult to find on the net what the Game departments numbers are, but they are killing a lot of wolves in BC. Trappers are still at it. Guides have extended their seasons by offering winter hunts. The one I know is taking 20-30 out of his area every year. Aerial gunning and even poison are still in use. The Game department seems to stay low key as not to inflame the Anti's. I did find where the anti's were upset the dollars from auction hunts were going to wolf control. Alberta is having quite a few problems. other provinces as well.
Every BC hunt I've been on the people I've met just kind of take care of their problems without making a fuss.

here in B.C. anyone can shoot a wolf witht he purchase of an annual hunting liscense, no special tag required. I think a big part of why we don't have AS BIG of an issue is twofold. Firstly and most importantly, to this region it is a NATIVE species. The ecosystem did not have to try to adapt to the introduction of an invasive species that was replacing a predator that it did not have to cope with for many years. Secondly and almost as important, in my opinion anyways, is the fact that our lands are a lot less developed for much larger areas. The majority of the interior of the province is largly undevelped, allowing the critters in any given area the ability to use all their evolutionary tools to stay alive thus keeping things in balance. Where large areas had been clear cut in the past as well as areas that have been cleared for farmland there are wolf issues. Easy source of food(livestock) as well as a predatory advantage for a pack hunter that now has the ability to chase an annimal across large ares till it cant run anymore. I'm sure someone is going to argue with these points and say that there is no proof of these staements so I will close with the staetment that these are my opinions based on the experinces of living here and seeing what happens for all my life

 

[elkaholic]

here in B.C. anyone can shoot a wolf witht he purchase of an annual hunting liscense, no special tag required. I think a big part of why we don't have AS BIG of an issue is twofold. Firstly and most importantly, to this region it is a NATIVE species. The ecosystem did not have to try to adapt to the introduction of an invasive species that was replacing a predator that it did not have to cope with for many years. Secondly and almost as important, in my opinion anyways, is the fact that our lands are a lot less developed for much larger areas. The majority of the interior of the province is largly undevelped, allowing the critters in any given area the ability to use all their evolutionary tools to stay alive thus keeping things in balance. Where large areas had been clear cut in the past as well as areas that have been cleared for farmland there are wolf issues. Easy source of food(livestock) as well as a predatory advantage for a pack hunter that now has the ability to chase an annimal across large ares till it cant run anymore. I'm sure someone is going to argue with these points and say that there is no proof of these staements so I will close with the staetment that these are my opinions based on the experinces of living here and seeing what happens for all my life

I for one believe that your opinion has a LOT of validity!.......Rich

 

[jmden]

I for one believe that your opinion has a LOT of validity!.......Rich

Yes, and it just makes 'common sense'.

Edit: I was trying to show that great disparity in populations (~10X !) between Canada and the continental USA with similar a square area of land in an earlier post. Things are going to be different due to the great differences in populations in terms of negative wolf interactions down here just because there are 10x as many people. When you see up there that they don't have to buy a wolf tag, just a general license to kill a wolf up there in BC, and you look at the population differences and the undeveloped area differences, it's mind boggling that we would introduce a non-native species, caught and shipped from Canada, brought across the 49th parallel, and suddenly called 'endangered' and then not be allowed to control it! Foolishness.

Things seem to be much worse down there with and unregulated wolf growing in population at 25% per year eating and killing its way through elk and deer herds and 100 years of true conservation and damaging livestock operations to a significant degree, so why on earth can't we manage the wolf down here like they can up there!

 

[freebird63]

JMden, It happened I believe two seasons now, but there some controversy about whether it was considered a trophy bull, they waited for the horns to dry to remeasure it. On some forums it was talked about a lot. Then last year we had the Aussies here in Idaho that got busted.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I appreciate the post by bman73 because what he stated is basically what I was trying to say in one of my posts that you can't compare the US to the Canadian Provinces and it didn't come across correctly. I also believe his postulation, as presented, is on the button.

 

[jmden]

JMden, It happened I believe two seasons now, but there some controversy about whether it was considered a trophy bull, they waited for the horns to dry to remeasure it. On some forums it was talked about a lot. Then last year we had the Aussies here in Idaho that got busted.

Chuck,
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you talking about the poaching incident with the saveelk.com guy? Did it matter if it was a trophy bull or not and if so why?
Thanks,
Jon

 

[jmden]

here in B.C. anyone can shoot a wolf witht he purchase of an annual hunting liscense, no special tag required. I think a big part of why we don't have AS BIG of an issue is twofold. Firstly and most importantly, to this region it is a NATIVE species. The ecosystem did not have to try to adapt to the introduction of an invasive species that was replacing a predator that it did not have to cope with for many years. Secondly and almost as important, in my opinion anyways, is the fact that our lands are a lot less developed for much larger areas. The majority of the interior of the province is largly undevelped, allowing the critters in any given area the ability to use all their evolutionary tools to stay alive thus keeping things in balance. Where large areas had been clear cut in the past as well as areas that have been cleared for farmland there are wolf issues. Easy source of food(livestock) as well as a predatory advantage for a pack hunter that now has the ability to chase an annimal across large ares till it cant run anymore. I'm sure someone is going to argue with these points and say that there is no proof of these staements so I will close with the staetment that these are my opinions based on the experinces of living here and seeing what happens for all my life

I wonder what it would take for me to take a rifle up over the border on my trips up there and what it would cost to get the cheapest hunting license as a non-resident. Could very likely get a wolf nearly every year. No, I should put my efforts down here, not up there...

 

[bigngreen]

here in B.C. anyone can shoot a wolf witht he purchase of an annual hunting liscense, no special tag required. I think a big part of why we don't have AS BIG of an issue is twofold. Firstly and most importantly, to this region it is a NATIVE species. The ecosystem did not have to try to adapt to the introduction of an invasive species that was replacing a predator that it did not have to cope with for many years. Secondly and almost as important, in my opinion anyways, is the fact that our lands are a lot less developed for much larger areas. The majority of the interior of the province is largly undevelped, allowing the critters in any given area the ability to use all their evolutionary tools to stay alive thus keeping things in balance. Where large areas had been clear cut in the past as well as areas that have been cleared for farmland there are wolf issues. Easy source of food(livestock) as well as a predatory advantage for a pack hunter that now has the ability to chase an annimal across large ares till it cant run anymore. I'm sure someone is going to argue with these points and say that there is no proof of these staements so I will close with the staetment that these are my opinions based on the experinces of living here and seeing what happens for all my life

I'm very thankful you posted up on this!!!! I really think we need to drop the wolf as a "big game" animal down here, to many guys are already treating it like a trophy elk or deer and not sharing info between hunters and trying to protect their wolf honey hole.