Why not use expander balls?

[Canadian Bushman]

Ive been playing with neck tension, trying different things, and wondering why most folks avoid expander balls? My thinking is they are the one tool that can size the neck and give the most consistant neck to bullet fit. I would like some different ideas and methods from some other handloaders, so hit me with it.

 

[Browninglover1]

I think most people don't like them because you have to work the brass more than using bushing dies. Personally I like expanders because it consistently sets the case ID without the need to worry about neck thickness and uniformity. If I was shooting tight neck chambers I would use a bushing die just because I would have already needed to turn the case necks.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I neck turn my brass, size it to just under my desired size with a bushing die, then pull a floating expander through the shell a few times to end up around .001 under nominal bullet dia.

 

[J E Custom]

Ive been playing with neck tension, trying different things, and wondering why most folks avoid expander balls? My thinking is they are the one tool that can size the neck and give the most consistent neck to bullet fit. I would like some different ideas and methods from some other hand loaders, so hit me with it.

De-capping rod Expanders are the most common method to size the neck tor bullet tension
because it sets the inside of the neck regardless of the neck wall thickness and does not require
turning the necks.

To get consistent neck tension, necks need to be turned to even thickness and uniform with all of the other cases in the batch you load. necks of un-equal thickness are not very consistent and also
move the bullet center off the bore center.

When you turn the necks and fire form the case it centers everything up. at this point using a DE-capping rod expander doubles the work hardening of the neck compared to a bushing die.

Necks that are turned and sized will have more consistent neck tension because of uniform neck thickness and case to case uniformity.

J E CUSTOM

 

[HARPERC]

One issue I found with expander balls is they aren't held to very tight tolerances. I had one .375 that miked .378, bullets just fell in and out of the case. Turned it down a bit and used it for cast bullets that were .001 oversized, and seated bullets just finger tight.

"Working the necks" can be reduced at times by reducing ball size. Neck tension can also be adjusted a bit by slowly altering expander ball size.

Forester I think makes oversized expander balls for those that desire less neck tension.

Once upon a time when there were actual gun shops. I sat down with a supply of various sized balls and a mike, in these days of CNC production, tolerances may have improved, but at that time they were not very tight at all.

I'm not arguing if bushings are better than expander balls, just saying bushings come in various sizes. Finding the best expander ball diameter also needs to be searched for.

 

[westcliffe01]

This might seem quite a simple problem, but it is not. We are not sizing a brass cylinder of uniform diameter and wall thickness. The neck is attached to the shoulder of the cartridge on one side and nothing on the other side. Because of the different end fixing, the springback on each side is different.

I personally find ball type expanders to produce a tapered neck. I prefer the lee collet neck sizers myself, but they are not always available for all cartridges.

I do not have any chambers that require turned necks, but I can certainly see the benefit one can gain from keeping the neck thickness consistent and uniform.

Ive been playing with neck tension, trying different things, and wondering why most folks avoid expander balls? My thinking is they are the one tool that can size the neck and give the most consistant neck to bullet fit. I would like some different ideas and methods from some other handloaders, so hit me with it.

 

[AZShooter]

FL Dies that use a sizer ball also have a neck diameter that is significantly reduced to accommodate any brand of brass. As JE Custom already stated, this combination of die and the sizer ball brass can cause the necks to become work hardened which increases the neck tension. Only way to reduce the neck tension is to use a larger diameter sizer ball, which may not be as easy as it sounds.

The workhardened necks can cause excessive runout of loaded ammo .

I recently helped a friend put together some loads for his 300 Weatherby with three times fired brass. We used his RCBS FL die with a sizer ball. The necks were so work hardened that there was quite a bit of resistance when seating the bullets. I checked the sized brass before seating a bullet and the runout was very good at less than .003" The seated bullets had a runout of .009-.011" !!! We bought some new brass and the softer necks sized easily and the end result was runout of loaded ammo of less than .003"

 

[SidecarFlip]

One issue I found with expander balls is they aren't held to very tight tolerances. I had one .375 that miked .378, bullets just fell in and out of the case. Turned it down a bit and used it for cast bullets that were .001 oversized, and seated bullets just finger tight.

"Working the necks" can be reduced at times by reducing ball size. Neck tension can also be adjusted a bit by slowly altering expander ball size.

Forester I think makes oversized expander balls for those that desire less neck tension.

Once upon a time when there were actual gun shops. I sat down with a supply of various sized balls and a mike, in these days of CNC production, tolerances may have improved, but at that time they were not very tight at all.

I'm not arguing if bushings are better than expander balls, just saying bushings come in various sizes. Finding the best expander ball diameter also needs to be searched for.

....or in my case machined. I don't believe I have one ball that hasn't been modified. So long as you have the means to alter neck size by altering ball diameter, all is good. I have a few bushing dies, **** few.

My motto....'Balls to the wall................'

 

[Canadian Bushman]

FL Dies that use a sizer ball also have a neck diameter that is significantly reduced to accommodate any brand of brass. As JE Custom already stated, this combination of die and the sizer ball brass can cause the necks to become work hardened which increases the neck tension. Only way to reduce the neck tension is to use a larger diameter sizer ball, which may not be as easy as it sounds.

The workhardened necks can cause excessive runout of loaded ammo .

I recently helped a friend put together some loads for his 300 Weatherby with three times fired brass. We used his RCBS FL die with a sizer ball. The necks were so work hardened that there was quite a bit of resistance when seating the bullets. I checked the sized brass before seating a bullet and the runout was very good at less than .003" The seated bullets had a runout of .009-.011" !!! We bought some new brass and the softer necks sized easily and the end result was runout of loaded ammo of less than .003"

This is what i hear most commonly. Expander balls lead to bullet runout. I have seen this happen to myself but still do not fully understand why. I float my decapping rod to avoid this but it steming from neck hardness has not occurred to me. It seem plausible but i need some help connecting how case hardness can lead to runout.

 

[Mikecr]

For one thing, use of bushings or not is irrelevant to this.
You can pre-expand necks prior to bullet seating so that you're not sizing necks with bullets, so that continuing springback will increase tension over time, and to drive thickness variance outward(for straighter seating).
You could choose a die/bushing to provide proper interference without expansion, but seating may not be as straight, and continuing springback will reduce tension over time. To counter this, many have embraced constant annealing.

I choose to expand and measure expansion forces while doing so, but I don't use a ball in the die.
I use a Sinclair mandrel, and for depriming I use a hand tool.
SINCLAIR GENERATION II EXPANDER DIES | Sinclair Intl
SINCLAIR EXPANDER MANDREL - OVERSIZED | Sinclair Intl
DECAPPING TOOL

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I like the use of neck bushings because it allows me to control how much i form the brass. My fl dies were, in my opinion, taking the brass necks to far under and creating too muck work for the expander. By only squeezing the neck .001 under the final size, the expanders works more consistantly. This coupled with constant annealing is the best ive come up with to this point.

 

[woods]

For one thing, use of bushings or not is irrelevant to this.
You can pre-expand necks prior to bullet seating so that you're not sizing necks with bullets, so that continuing springback will increase tension over time, and to drive thickness variance outward(for straighter seating).
You could choose a die/bushing to provide proper interference without expansion, but seating may not be as straight, and continuing springback will reduce tension over time. To counter this, many have embraced constant annealing.

I choose to expand and measure expansion forces while doing so, but I don't use a ball in the die.
I use a Sinclair mandrel, and for depriming I use a hand tool.
SINCLAIR GENERATION II EXPANDER DIES | Sinclair Intl
SINCLAIR EXPANDER MANDREL - OVERSIZED | Sinclair Intl
DECAPPING TOOL

Mike what do you use to size the necks smaller before using the expander mandrel, a bushing die?

And do you have to use lube in the neck before using the expander mandrel?

 

[Mikecr]

I partial NS with Wilson bushing dies. I can adjust the length of sizing with shim washers(machine bushings), which I do as part of fine tuning during load development.

The carbon film in fired necks is perfect lube as it is. After vibratory cleaning and neck sizing of cases, I run a turning mandrel through each neck and watch the force required to do so. If hi/low, I can affect further readings up/down either with an expander mandrel(+1thou), or higher/lower length in neck sizing using a different thickness die shim(instant change with hand dies).

I typically load 50rnds at a time, and out of measure I typically set aside ~6 or 7 to tweak on. If it goes beyond this(becomes a burden), it's time to consider a reset with annealing.
Another subject, but:
To have control over actual bullet tension you need to have control over springback, which means you need springback. Annealing can greatly reduce springback, and this can remove control over it.

Annealing does 3 things: It increases seating forces AND reduces bullet tension AND affects your control over it otherwise.
With this, your tension and consistency of it comes down to the precision in your annealing. So if you're going to do it frequently, I recommend you invest in the best available process for it.

 

[Kennibear]

For a very nominal sum Lee Precision will custom make a collet neck sizer for just about any caliber. My son has one in 300 WinMag and you can buy smaller mandrels if you need more neck tension. They work the case the very least amount possible and once you try them you will be hooked for life. No matter what your case neck thickness is the Lee die cannot size the neck smaller than the mandrel. Problem gone.

KB