Why not use expander balls?

[Canadian Bushman]

Kennibear,
I was hoping you would chime in.
Ive not tried collet dies but coupled with mandrels sounds like a fine idea

 

[westcliffe01]

Unless they have taken down the notice, Lee, RCBS, Hornady and Foster have given notice that they are not accepting orders for custom dies due to the current workloads. This is similar to the Hornady bullet "consolidation" which has now been going on for how many months and no sign of abatement. I for sure have a few different dies I would like to order...

For a very nominal sum Lee Precision will custom make a collet neck sizer for just about any caliber. My son has one in 300 WinMag and you can buy smaller mandrels if you need more neck tension. They work the case the very least amount possible and once you try them you will be hooked for life. No matter what your case neck thickness is the Lee die cannot size the neck smaller than the mandrel. Problem gone.

KB

 

[Kennibear]

Have not seen pistol caliber (9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Mag etc.) dies on the shelves for almost a year. Last week they had one of each. Ditto 308 or 223 dies. Midway just had a sale on a 9mm progressive loader and they were unobtainable only a few months ago. Primers were kept behind the counter and limit 1K per SKU and 2K total. On Monday primers have moved back on the shelves and no limits apply. Sit down for this- they had 44 Mag brass!!! Three bags! And no limits!!!

Point is, things are improving. Lee was inundated like everybody. They will free up soon. When they do have your list ready. Lee has "Limited Production Customs" now and then so look for those. My 375 Ruger Case Length Gauge/Pilot and Shell Holder for a Lee case trimmer was just such an item. Bought a Factory Crimp Die at that time.

It's all coming back but we have to wait. But it is worth it. Collet Neck Die in 375 Ruger is on my short list. Going to order it with an undersized mandrel.

KB

 

[woods]

I partial NS with Wilson bushing dies. I can adjust the length of sizing with shim washers(machine bushings), which I do as part of fine tuning during load development.

The carbon film in fired necks is perfect lube as it is. After vibratory cleaning and neck sizing of cases, I run a turning mandrel through each neck and watch the force required to do so. If hi/low, I can affect further readings up/down either with an expander mandrel(+1thou), or higher/lower length in neck sizing using a different thickness die shim(instant change with hand dies).

I typically load 50rnds at a time, and out of measure I typically set aside ~6 or 7 to tweak on. If it goes beyond this(becomes a burden), it's time to consider a reset with annealing.
Another subject, but:
To have control over actual bullet tension you need to have control over springback, which means you need springback. Annealing can greatly reduce springback, and this can remove control over it.

Annealing does 3 things: It increases seating forces AND reduces bullet tension AND affects your control over it otherwise.
With this, your tension and consistency of it comes down to the precision in your annealing. So if you're going to do it frequently, I recommend you invest in the best available process for it.

Hate to keep buggin you Mike but am fascinated with processes, i.e. cause and effect

It seem counterintuitive to me that "annealing will increase seating force and reduce bullet tension." Annealing makes the brass softer, more malleable and decreases springback, no? If it is softer with less springback then it would seem to me to make seating easier, but I could see how it would reduce bullet tension with less springback.

How do you gauge the force applied to insert turning mandrels or expander mandrels? By gauge, experience or comparative feel?

 

[Mikecr]

See, this is a disadvantage with the collet approach.
We can do as much and more with Wilson/redding bushings and standard Sinclair mandrels.
And we can do it on the fly for tuning.

It is true, when problems exist, that a collet die helps to reduce runout over more conventional sizing.
But when problems don't exist, you gain nothing here, while still paying price for the approach.
There are prices for everything.

 

[Greyfox]

I have sizer dyes that are set up with and without expander balls. I find it convenient to run new brass which may have necks that are undersized for my standard load. I think the key determinant when using expanders is to make sure the depriming rod that the expander ball is attached has enough play in it so the neck is not knocked out of alignment. Some dyes have play built in, others don't. If they don't I put a small rubber o ring between the locking nut and the shell holder body. I also make sure that the expander ball diameter is sized so only light resistance is felt with the upward stroke. This way I'm not work hardening my brass, and not "pulling the neck". Using this approach I can get a higher number of reloads between annealing compared to expanding an oversized neck which is common with many dyes as has been mentioned in previous posts. I think attention to this process is key to keeping run outs unse .002". IMO.

 

[Mikecr]

To annealing: If it is softer with less springback then it would seem to me to make seating easier,

Softer necks, that are not pre-expanded, springback outward -less from downsizing. With this, there is more interference fit to a seating bullet which must upsize the neck further. Bullets make terrible expanders. This increases seating forces, which messes with seating precision, due to wedging of the seater stem.
If a softer neck is pre-expanded, it will springback inward less, leaving less interference and easier seating, but with less bullet grip also.

A common misconception about tension occurs when necks are overworked to hardening, and downsized only(no expansion to follow). The greater springback counters more outward from downsizing, leaving less interference fit, and bullet seating forces drop off. If the bushing doesn't size enough the seating bullet might drop right into the case, as springback countered enough neck sizing to allow this.
People see this as lost neck tension here, and they're sure annealing regains it. No, nobody loses the potential tension in harder necks. They're just managing springback with annealing rather than proper sizing. This is like bending necks for concentricity, instead of making straight ammo to begin with.
Anyway, when they anneal for this condition, seating force increases and the specific issue is resolved, but their neck tension(bullet grip) is now lower, and their load is affected by this.
If they developed a good load with this method maintained(frequent precise annealing), then they're good as long as it's working for them, and this does work for some.
But the misconception about tension is still there.

Another factor people fail to consider is that springback continues over time, in a direction countering last sizing. This occurs everywhere brass is sized(energy injected). Neck, shoulder, body, even primer pockets.
We see our brass as static, whiles it's actually dynamic.

How do you gauge the force applied to insert turning mandrels or expander mandrels? By gauge, experience or comparative feel?

I'll try to post a pic Woods.
Mine is a home made amp/indicator fed from a resistive force sensor, which I currently have installed over the free floating mandrel in it's die. I used to have the sensor in a shellholder, but I use different shellholders for shoulder bumps, and changed this.
The sensors could be used with a simple ohm meter, or you could use a laptop/software.
FlexiForce Force Sensors | Single Button Force Sensing Resistor | Tekscan
ELF Economical Load and Force Measurement System | Tekscan

 

[Mikecr]

Greyfox, in the pic I posted you can see I also use o-rings under the lockrings. Those dies are only hand-snug to them.
The shellholders I use here are relatively loose compared to others, and the only rigid part of this(which I've modified to be) is the press itself.

I think you're right.

 

[woods]

Wow Mike, no I don't want to go that far. But am glad you are and are measuring these minute back and forth forces. It all makes sense.

It would seem that for all this to work, you would have to also have very strict control over neck thickness. Any variation could kill your calculations and measurements.

I thought I was around a 90 percenter but will back up to about 75%

 

[Greyfox]

Greyfox, in the pic I posted you can see I also use o-rings under the lockrings. Those dies are only hand-snug to them.
The shellholders I use here are relatively loose compared to others, and the only rigid part of this(which I've modified to be) is the press itself.

I think you're right.

Your set up is quite impressive Mike!

It's amazing how many dyes I have seen over the years that have the expander stem off center in the dye with no flex at all. Many years ago Ii found out the hard way that this is a sure bet for high runout. You could see the bullet wobble when the case was rolled on a table. I wonder how many handloaders don't even realize this?

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Your set up is quite impressive Mike!

It's amazing how many dyes I have seen over the years that have the expander stem off center in the dye with no flex at all. Many years ago Ii found out the hard way that this is a sure bet for high runout. You could see the bullet wobble when the case was rolled on a table. I wonder how many handloaders don't even realize this?

Ive also seen this in many dies and also make sure to never fully tighten my de capping rods down.

 

[Kennibear]

The process for my reloading has devolved into decapping as a separate first step. Then cleaning as necessary. The sizing comes after. I have had too many decapping rods bent from tough primers/misaligned flash holes. I generally adjust my expander to engage the neck just after the case neck is fully withdrawn from the die's neck sizing. Maybe two turns down on the decapping rod with the neck just touching the neck portion of the die. The expander is generally lined up pretty well that high in the die.

As a long time bullet caster I use Lyman "M" neck expanders in most calibers. These allow the bullet to be hand started pretty straight and the slight shoulder holds and forces the bullet to start the seating pretty much in line.

I have also believed that the least working of the case is the best. So using a NS die that does not require expanding after is preferred. But as a point of order the NS die still rubs the case as it moves in and out. It is minimal but it is working the neck, the most heavily worked area of the case The collet die only applies compression to the neck with no sliding drag. The neck spring back releases the neck from the mandrel eliminating stretching work there. The mandrel makes the die self-centering as much as can be, limiting neck run-out.

For those of us who do not pursue the Nth degree the collet die is the simplest, cleanest and readily available method to accurately neck size and minimize stress on the case.

MikeCR:
Could you post some of the data you have for that setup? How much force is generated? Does the side force exceed the yield point of the brass? Inquiring minds want to know!

KB

 

[Kennibear]

MikeCR

Just thought of another question if you don't mind? What is the ball park number you use for the NS diameter as a subtraction from the case neck diameter with bullet seated measurement?

KB

 

[Mikecr]

Kennibear, my system is unitless and I haven't bothered to determine actual forces to scale.
No need to that I can think of.

I use any bushing that leaves sized portion of necks ~2.5thou under cal, after springback.
Bushing size depends on sizing amount needed(set angle) and neck thickness itself.
My mandrels take this up and springback leaves ~1.5thou under cal. Given enough reloading these creep up to near ~1thou under cal.
Plenty of bullet grip for single shot loading, even with as little as 1/8" in neck length sizing.

I could back off on bushing sizes where expansion would not be needed, and there is benefit to this in that it introduces less energy to necks. But I want low runout and matched tension, and since my clearances are low I'm not sizing much anyway. The springback with this does grow over many cycles, but between more outward springback on downsizing combined with more inward springback from expansion, it so far seems easily manageable.

Eventually I will need to reset all cases with annealing.
A sad day, but not a huge setback from my system (lead dip).