Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best re

[Michael Eichele]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

[ QUOTE ]
are you saying the 308 with a hart barrel or schneier is more accurate than a 6.5-284??

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all! The 6.5x284 is a very accurate round. I will say that after 1000 rounds after the barrel is deformed in the 6.5x284 the 308 will shoot circles around the 6.5x284. By the time a sniper gets to know his "6.5" the barrel is fried. Not so with the 308. The 308 will shoot near the same at 3000 rounds as it did the day it hit the range. Many good 308 barrels will still shoot 1 MOA after 10,000 rounds. Dont even think about it for the 6.5. Once again, paper ballistics meen nothing.

 

[Mikecr]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

1MOA?
I wonder how many shots it would take to make a 6.5x284 shoot so bad..
If this is the standard we're talkin, there is surely plenty of barrel life left when a 6.5x284 is normally tossed in a dumpster.

 

[roninflag]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you saying the 308 with a hart barrel or schneier is more accurate than a 6.5-284??

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all! The 6.5x284 is a very accurate round. I will say that after 1000 rounds after the barrel is deformed in the 6.5x284 the 308 will shoot circles around the 6.5x284. By the time a sniper gets to know his "6.5" the barrel is fried. Not so with the 308. The 308 will shoot near the same at 3000 rounds as it did the day it hit the range. Many good 308 barrels will still shoot 1 MOA after 10,000 rounds. Dont even think about it for the 6.5. Once again, paper ballistics meen nothing.

[/ QUOTE ] the 6.5-284 will go through barrels faster. it is unfortunate that money/ the cost of barrels comes into . he asked what was better/best. having shot both the 308 and the 6.5-284 at 1000 yards; paper balistics translate directly into ACTUAL wind drift; drop and energy. and if you can nail a bad guy at 987 yards today. there is less chance for him to fire at you the next.

 

[roninflag]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

It's about having a reliable rifle...

...with a cartridge that is easy to shoot prone, all day long, by guys that might weigh 120#.

... whose barrel won't burn out in 1000 rounds (or less).

... whose muzzle flash is non-existent so the shooter won't draw heavy fire each time he shoots.

... that is easy to train on.

... that can hit reliably at ranges up to 800~ish yards, without revealing where the shooter is located by flash, kicked up dust, or moving brush from the blast.
catshooter : i like your concept of "reliable rifle"- the 6.5-06 is my choice. it is long enough and has enough taper to feed reliably. those short fat( squatty ) rounds like the 6br get unbelieveble velocity out of a small case but they don't feed well. . the army already has a long action all they would have to do is put on a new barrel. i don't know what to say about the marines ( 6.5rsaUM? ) 7MMWSM? with their short action.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

Youre right! I would want to be able to know without a shadow of a doubt that I can hit my target and neutralize it so it cant fire back at me. This is going to be accomplished with not paper ballistics, but real range time and KNOWING my weapon inside and out. The point here is that by the time a sniper get fully familiar with a weapon to trust his life to it, some other cartridges barrel's will be of minimal value and a miss may be the order of the day. A 6.5 and a 308 are going to drift. It is up to the sniper to read the wind and calculate his windage and adjust accordingly. Yes the 6.5 may "buck" the wind a bit better with SOME projectiles, but we still have to go back the condition of the barrel. If it is of no value in the accuracy department, less wind drift is useless. Besides, a 308 with the 175 SMK can more than hold its own with the wind in the real world. The fact that barrel life comes into play is a major concideration for the military to concider. I am not saying the 308 is better than the 6.5, but for the application, the 308 is a better choice all around. Better is a subjective term.

On a side note, for anyone who thinks the 6.5 spanks the 308 all the way around all the time has never used the 155 Scenar in the 308 against the 6.5 142 SMK.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

After 10,000 rounds??

 

[Nomosendero]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the top end tactical/sniper comps now are being won with the 260 or the 260 AI. Flatter, less wind and less recoil and same good barrel life.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 260 has MUCH LESS barrel life - many of my friends shoot it in tactical matches, and short barrel life is their main bitch.

.

[/ QUOTE ]


I understand that the 260 has less barrel life, it has too as it burns about the same amt. of powder with the same case, but with a smaller hole. I just did not know it was as drastic as you describe. Are you talking 50% of the life, or 60-70%?
I have thought of getting a 260 instead of the 308 for a bigger than Varmit volume rifle, but not if the difference is this much.

 

[CPerkins]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

I also heard it was a tactical choice. It takes a few guys to haul off a wounded man. More than it would take to bag one up. 308 is a deadly round, but if it doesn't kill at 1000 yards instantly, oh well.

 

[metau]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

Sorry, I know that this is off of the first subject, but I just had to throw this in. I see that there has been mention of several differant types of bullets. Now, I am not sure what rules dictate what Law Enforcement is allowed to use, but I do know that for the military, we had to follow the rules set by the Geneva Convention. I doubt that this would allow for the better, higher BC bullets and what not. Just some food for thought.

Jerry

ps-Once again, sorry for getting off subject, but I feel that your original question has been answered.

 

[milanuk]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

Actually, it's the Hague Convention of 1899 that was the 'problem' w/ using open-tipped bullets. Specifically it addressed the use of bullets "...which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

A few years (actually more like 20+ )back the U.S. JAG reached the decision (not sure where it went from there) that *match* type hollow point bullets were not the same as say, hunting type hollow points. The one is an artifice of manufacture (i.e. the closing of the tip), the other is intended to enhance the expansion of the bullet. As such, it was decided to allow the use of bullets such as the Sierra Match King bullets in conventional ammunition, specifically the stuff designated for sniper duty.

There's been a whole bunch of 77gr SMK's and Noslers getting used over in the sand box for the various M16 based SPR/SDM rifles... all conventional match hollowpoints. Most of your VLD style bullets from Berger, Lapua, etc. are the same sort of match hollowpoint boat tail bullet, and similarly covered by the same decision. I think the Hornady A-Max style bullet might raise some questions, as to whether the rapid expansion effect from the tip being pushed into the body is an artifact of the manufacture for accuracy, or if it is an intensional side-effect. Given that I think there were Nosler 'Ballistic Tips' and Hornady 'V-Max' bullets before there were match bullets w/ the polymer tips... that one might be tough to sell.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[metau]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

Monte,
Thanks for clarifying. I just know that when I was over there one my first trip that I was told that I could only use the ball and tracer ammo provided to me by my platoon sgt due to the convention rules. Granted, I was not a sniper, but I had shot some Black Hills Match ammo out of my M4 before we went over, and was quite pleased with it, as was my section sgt. Neither of us were allowed to use any while we were over there, but we still managed with the ball. I was unaware of the JAG decision. Once again, thanks for clarifying.

Jerry

 

[älg]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

The 6,5 x 55 swde has a long barrel life and I think it should be well considered... however it requires a long action.

 

[BountyHunter]

Re: Why do snipers use .308 with so many other options??? What is best

SF and other SOF are using a Black Hills loaded round with the 77gr SMK for ALL of their M4 and other AR derivatives, not just snipers.

The USASOC and SF Command Jags in the late 80s made the decison on the sniper rounds and other SMK bullets.

BH

 

[nksmfamjp]

A round choice should be made based on a certain range of bullet weights delivered at a certain velocity with a given recoil penalty. We have seen this above detailed out for the 308.

The rifle is what makes accuracy. The rifle can fine tune recoil and velocity, through weight and barrel length respectively. For a field gun. . .the stock will probably have the greatest impact on practical accuracy.