Why 7STW over 300WM?

[clrblu22]

I'm having a rifle built this fall and have really been torn between the 7stw and the 300 wm. ballistically, it seems like you can make them almost identical - but there are clearly a lot more ammo choices for the 300wm. I will be using the rifle for 30% hunting (elk,deer,wolf) and 70% long range target. Give me your reasons why the 7stw would be your clear choice - given my purposes. Thanks in advance.

 

[MudRunner2005]

7mm bullets have better ballistic coefficients than .308 caliber bullets. The STW is a hotrod and can really stretch her legs and show what she can do at extreme distances. Everyone and their brother has a .300 WinMag.....Not many folks have STW's comparatively. And last, but not least, you should buy an STW because we have our own section on the forum. LOL

 

[Broz]

Here is why I shoot a 300 win even though I have built several good 7mm's. The current selection of 300 bullets will better retained velocity at distance, and have BC's at or above the most popular 7mm hunting bullets. You named target shooting, the 300 win barrel will still be shooting accurately after the throat starts to go in the 7. Plus you will always spot hits on rocks and steel better with larger bullets. You can get brass almost anywhere as well as ammo for the 300 win. 7STW, not so much. You mentioned Elk, I will always opt for a heavier higher BC bullet for elk and why I shoot a 300 win even after extensive testing with the 7-300 which is very close to a 7 STW. I like a good 7mm, and I like the STW but there is a reason the 7's have never taken over the 300's. They are close in many situations, but when I weigh the results and add in distance the 300 win is still my choice.

Jeff

 

[SFR292]

Here is why I shoot a 300 win even though I have built several good 7mm's. The current selection of 300 bullets will better retained velocity at distance, and have BC's at or above the most popular 7mm hunting bullets. You named target shooting, the 300 win barrel will still be shooting accurately after the throat starts to go in the 7. Plus you will always spot hits on rocks and steel better with larger bullets. You can get brass almost anywhere as well as ammo for the 300 win. 7STW, not so much. You mentioned Elk, I will always opt for a heavier higher BC bullet for elk and why I shoot a 300 win even after extensive testing with the 7-300 which is very close to a 7 STW. I like a good 7mm, and I like the STW but there is a reason the 7's have never taken over the 300's. They are close in many situations, but when I weigh the results and add in distance the 300 win is still my choice.

Jeff

If you run the long range ballistics between a 300WM and 7STW the STW passes and walks away from the WM at about 800 yards. I think you might want to restate your quote on BCs on 30 Cal over 7mm(284), when comparing apples to apples (bullet weight to bullet weight) the 7mm is quite ahead of the 30 cal, it's not until you get over the 200gr mark on the 30 cal that the BC's really get impressive, and in a 300WM, those heavy bullets aren't moving that fast (in comparison to the 7mm STW) which directly translates to bullet drop and wind drift.

Seeing how hunting is a main concern, the time of flight is another big benefit the STW has over the 300WM, now this doesn't make a big difference until you're past the 700yd range or so. Example, 168gr 300WM SMK leaving the tube at 3150 has a flight time in the 2.2sec range at 1000 yds, a 168 7mm leaving an STW at 3350 (what mine does) hits at 1.4 sec, that almost a full sec ahead of the WM, and we all know how much an animal can do in a 1 sec.

The STW has limitations, it's meant as a speed freak, which means you need to choose your engagement correctly, for the most part, IMO, anything closer than 300-400yds is too close for most bullets moving at those speeds to preform ideally, it needs some space to slow it down some. Some will argue that WM causes more impact energy, and in some cases it does, but the basic physics of mass x velocity = energy will tell you that a bigger bullet moving slower is the same a smaller bullet moving faster.

The 7mm also fights the wind better in the STW for two reasons, 1) smaller cross section. The smaller cross section means there's less surface area for the wind to push against the bullet. 2) Speed, the bullet is exposed to the wind a less amount of time over a given distance moving as fast as the STW is capable of moving it.

The major downfall of the STW is the lack of factory loading, there's plenty out there, but the likelihood of finding it at WalMart in multiple loadings probably isn't going to happen. MOST, not all, STW shooters are reloaders and factory loadings aren't a huge concern to us who reload. But keep up your research on what you want, ultimately it's your weapon system, not mine. There's plenty of information out there and play around with the different ballistic programs and do some comparisons from different loads and shot scenarios you foresee yourself getting into and see which ones meet your requirements and make your choice from there.

 

[Broz]

I will address what I posted earlier and explain what I was referring to. 1st, I don't load little fast bullets. They slow faster and since hunting is what I seek, I will hit the game as hard as I can. Thus I was referring to loading large for caliber offerings. I live in elk country and hunt elk a lot.

Here is some real world data for both rifles I have worked with extensively.

7-300 with 180 Berger @ 3000 fps

300 win, 215 Berger Hybrid @ 3015 fps.

Both loaded close to max, both large for caliber offering, both close to 3000 fps.

1000 yard shot, 10 mph 3 O clock spin drift accounted for.

Impact velocity........... 1874
energy........................ 1403
drift............................ 4.5 MOA
time of flight............... 1.27 sec.

Same shot with 300 win.

Impact Velocity............ 1927
energy......................... 1773
drift ............................ 3.8 MOA
time of flight ............... 1.24 sec.

This is what I was talking about. I have shot them side by side. Both are great rifles. But for my type of shooting and elk hunting anything the 7 does the 300 will do and even a little better for my usage.

I am not going to get in a who's is bigger discussion with a 7 mm lover. I like them too. But I know why I still shoot a 300 win and have proven it to myself in the field.

When the 7mm 195 Berger is released I will be out testing them too. I have said before that could be a game changer, but not until I prove it in the field.

Jeff

 

[SFR292]

Thats the information I was poking you for. In your loading and setup, that explains it well and it proves the 300WM is better for your setup.

The point I was making is the apple to apple comparison, 168 vs 168 or any other cross over bullet weight, the 7mm has the better BC.

The speeds you have listed for the 7-300 is quite a bit slower than what I have produced with some of the STW's I've built, maybe the increase of speed will match the performance back up with your 300WM. In the scenarios that you have laid out I would probably reach in my safe and bring out my 338WM over the others, but that a whole another ball of wax.

Thanks for putting up the information so everyone can see more of the debate with real world information.

 

[Broz]

Thanks for putting up the information so everyone can see more of the debate with real world information.

You are welcome. The speeds I got from the 7-300 are just below max. My first chrono (chrony) had them 100 fps. faster. But what I posted above was from my new Oehler 35 and confirmed drops to 1 mile on paper from both rifles.

The last 7 STW I owned was not as accurate at max charge weight with 180's. But you could probably get another 100 fps. The barrel life there was not desirable for me. This is part of what led me to the 7-300 win. With both the STW and 7-300 in a nine twist I found the STW to prefer 168 or lighter bullets. That was one rifle and could have been a rifle/barrel specific problem, but for me it would not work. There is also the possibility that the throat was going in the STW but I would have expected the opposite in that case. So that still has me scratching my head.

There is no doubt the 7 STW is a fast cartridge with lighter bullets. But for long range work I will take more BC, less Drift, and more energy when I can get it. For this with todays bullets the 300 win serves me well.

I see your point , bullet weight to bullet weight, but I wouldn't load a 168 in a 300 win even if I were hunting mice at 200 yards. I believe in loading both for the longest shot I may engage. A shot shorter than that just becomes easier with either rifle.

Thanks
Jeff

 

[Buttermilk]

Apples to apples bullet comparison would involve sectional density, not bullet weight iny opinion.

Similar to what Broz is doing.

 

[SFR292]

Apples to apples bullet comparison would involve sectional density, not bullet weight iny opinion.

Similar to what Broz is doing.

The SD is important, again the whole point of the STW is speed, you make up for smaller SD with more impact velocity to equal your impact energy. That being said, I've seen quite a few elk dropped in their tracks with a 6.5x55 with a 120gr pill, as always, shot placement is key.

 

[bigngreen]

The only thing the 7STW has going for it IMO is the cult like following but other than that is has less barrel life and less quality components what's to like?

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

The only thing the 7STW has going for it IMO is the cult like following but other than that is has less barrel life and less quality components what's to like?

At 1,500 rounds my sendero 7mmstw was still putting up .3" to .4" groups at 100 yards. I retired it because I wanted to try a left handed rem in stw that I found. This rifle has over 400 rounds on it already and I've owned it a year and a month; I figure to shoot her out in 5 or 6 years.
I've got a 300 win that has well over 1000 rounds on it (probably 1,300 to 1,500) and she's already given up on a couple of loads she loved when new. The rifling looks better than the stw's did, but I believe she'll need a barrel in less than 1,000 rounds.
They are a horse a piece; you get slightly flatter trajectory with your bullets in the stw but you have more weight in the 300 win. I can get 3100 fps with my 24" barreled stw with a 171 barnes match. I have to push a 300 win to make 2950 fps with a 200-- with a 215-220 it's more like 2800 fps. I've had 3 different 300 wins and no 24" to 26" 300 win will break 2800 fps with a 220 without going over pressure. A longer barrel will go faster, sure, but I refuse to haul one of those through the badlands.
Now, the 300 rum and the 7 stw will be a bit closer. I can still walk my 300 rum with my 7stw as far as drop at 1000 yards even with a lowly 140 accubond at 3400 fps though. My 225's leave my 300 rum at 3000 fps loafing (I may try for more but why beat the rifle up). With a 250 yard zero she'll be 220 inches low at 1000 yards. My 7stw will be right at 203 inches low at 1000 yards with a 250 yard zero. Nearly 10% flatter in my pipes is plenty of reason to hunt the 7stw for me.

 

[Broz]

I have to push a 300 win to make 2950 fps with a 200-- with a 215-220 it's more like 2800 fps. .

My experience and yours in barrel life of the 300 win v/s the STW differ a lot. But I will offer this, for the next time you shoot a 215 Hybrid. Try H-1000 and a fed 215 in a large capacity case , not RWS brass but WW, Norma or even RP. Anyway, the shorter bearing surface of the only 215 I am aware of (Berger Hybrid O-give) actually allows me to get 30 to 50 fps more velocity than I did with 210 VLD's. At 1 gr less of H-1000 same lot powder and same brass.

How many different loads with 215 Bergers have you tested in your 300 win?

Thanks!

Jeff

 

[MudRunner2005]

The only thing the 7STW has going for it IMO is the cult like following but other than that is has less barrel life and less quality components what's to like?

Less quality components? Please elaborate.....

If drinking the STW koolaid for the last 11 years is wrong, then I don't wanna be right!

Obviously you've never owned one or dropped any game with one to make an ignorant post like this.

 

[bigngreen]

Less quality components? Please elaborate.....

If drinking the STW koolaid for the last 11 years is wrong, then I don't wanna be right!

Obviously you've never owned one or dropped any game with one to make an ignorant post like this.

Actually I love all you Koolaid drinkers, keeps the internet interesting. There have been more brass options come on line since I last was around one which is a good thing, I stand corrected. The 7 STW has no advantage over any other cartridge that will run the same bullets, it's just another way of launching them, it's killing capability has far more to do with the bullet and the shooter than the case!

The local gun shop has been sitting on 7 STW brass for years due to it's popularity, I was thinking of buying it and making a 270 STW to launch some new 170gr bullet that need launched faster than my WSM.