Shoulder bump problem or no problem?

[Tidesloe]

Measure your case web with calipers long ways. See if it's squeezing it down. Do this on fired case. Sized at .002 and .008

I'll have to fire more rounds, and that could be a couple of weeks until I can, and longer depending on the weather. It's winter in North Dakota . I initially only fired 5 to see what I had afterwards. I would assume it's not though, if right above the web is not sizing down at all until I've bumped back 5-6 thou.

 

[Willys]

I have dies that require .007 bump and as long as I anneal every time they are good for 7 or 8 firings. I've solved provlem by cutting top off a 2nd cheap die so I'm not bumping shoulder when bumping base. Two step process. I've also polished chamber with 1" wide 320 grit sandpaper in a slotted wood dowel to gain .002 at web to remove clickers. Either will work.

 

[Tidesloe]

I have dies that require .007 bump and as long as I anneal every time they are good for 7 or 8 firings. I've solved provlem by cutting top off a 2nd cheap die so I'm not bumping shoulder when bumping base. Two step process. I've also polished chamber with 1" wide 320 grit sandpaper in a slotted wood dowel to gain .002 at web to remove clickers. Either will work.

Could be I end up going to a 2 step sizing process

 

[Stonyman88]

I see no sign of neck contact. I'm a little apprehensive about trying to polish a chamber myself. I've read a bit about it today, and most seem to think cleaning it up with the same reamer that cut the chamber it the way to go.

Did you try cleaning it yet, see some said to clean it out, you have the fired brass and reamer, if it's clean and you have the same issue, talk with https://www.whiddengunworks.com/custom-reloading-dies/ and he can make you the correct dies if you need them.

 

[johngibbs222]

I recently bought a 40 year old Browning BLR in 308 and I had all sorts of problems getting cases to chamber both smoothly and completely.
If I relate the issues I had you can decide if they mirror any of the problems you have.
All the brass I reloaded was sticky, so much so I bought 20 rounds of match ammo which cycled perfectly, can you get factory loaded ammo to try?
The brass I was using had been fired in my previous 308, a much loved Ruger #1, as such I'd only ever neck sized it.
I'd been using max loads of CFE223 behind barnes mono bullets.
Even though I'd full length resized prior to loading for the BLR, the stickiness was there. A quick pass with a micrometer showed the brass was springing back, the issue was not as severe with federal brass but was with ex military ie palma match brass.
I found that at least 4 passes through my LEE FL die were needed with 7.62 brass as opposed to 2 passes on 308 brass before the base diameter got within 0.001" of the saami specification.
I realise that my issue was largely brought on by myself so I pulled the decapping/expander mandrel out of the die and resized the 40 odd reloaded cases I had, same result, 4 passes for 7.62 brass, 2 for federal, PPU and Winchester. All function OK now about a week after I performed that job so the cases haven't "creeped" back to an oversize state.
I'd say try multiple resizing operations with plenty of case lub round the base to see if you have that issue, it's so easy to do on your 5 cases before you start polishing the chamber etc.
nato brass on the right, federal on left, federal has been reloaded in excess of 10 times, nato will be 3rd reload. Apologies, unable to show before and after sizing, just after.
Just my 0.02$ worth.

 

[Stonyman88]

Could be I end up going to a 2 step sizing process

I would do the same process but use 1200 grit wet sandpaper , or at least 800 even you could use lapping compound, very fine

 

[Tidesloe]

Did you try cleaning it yet, see some said to clean it out, you have the fired brass and reamer, if it's clean and you have the same issue, talk with https://www.whiddengunworks.com/custom-reloading-dies/ and he can make you the correct dies if you need them.

Yes, I have cleaned and the problem is still there. That is what I might end up doing. For now most likely it'll be a 2 step sizing process

 

[grandedirt]

Every WSM I have owned exhibited this exact problem. I had a 270, 7mm and 300, all of which were factory guns. Not one would ever accept a .002" bump. They all required a minimum of .008" and a few required more. I tried every conceivable type of die and manufacturer. Never could get the results that I was after. The only thing I never tried was a "custom" die.
I spoke with a tech at Redding one day and his words were that all of the WSM's were "problem children". His thoughts were that the sizing issues had to do with how thick brass was for those cases coupled with having 35 degree shoulders.
FWIW…

 

[AZShooter]

My opinion is that your cases are thick and don't respond to the minor sizing of the web that your dies are giving you. The thick cases just don't respond to the "normal" reamer dimension/sizer dimension. The web gets expanded and resists sizing back down to fit the chamber. The end result a tight fitting case and a clicker when the once fired cartridge is fired. In some rifles the clicker shows up a bit later somewhere during the multiple firings of a case.

Gunsmith Alex Wheeler commented in a thread about clickers:

Why can’t we get good dies!

The OP is correct. A full length die is supposed to reduce the diameter of a case as well as set the shoulder back. Thats it's job. In most cases an off the shelf die will not reduce the diameter at the base above the extractor groove of a fired case from a saami minimum spec chamber, usually...

www.longrangehunting.com

Back in 2008 when the 338 RCM first hit the market I purchased a SAMMI reamer. I know as I ended up talking with Lonnie from Hornady. I made two 338 RCMs. I had fits with both rifles and dies not sizing down the web. I had been handloading since 1983 and never encountered this issue. I first used a Hornady FL die then RCBS FL die with neither doing the job. I sent Whidden a few fired cases and had them make a custom FL bushing die. It was better but didn't entirely address the issue. I even had a conversation with Dave Kiff about the issue. I wondered why reamer specs and sizer specs were a standard size difference when the sizing didn't work well on thicker cases like the WSMs, RUMs, RCMs etc. Never got a good answer from him or Lonnie. Around the same time I made a 300 RUM and had the same issue.

I decided to make my own small base dies as no one made them for the 338 RCM or 300 RUM. I used my lathe and taking a carbide tool bit to cut through the case hardened skin on the RCBS FL die cutting off both ends to make a small base die. This helped some. The issue persisted with clickers but not as bad as with the standard of custom FL dies.

Then the clicker thread showed up and it made perfect sense! I didn't buy a different reamer with slightly larger dimensions for the web area as was suggested by Alex Wheeler. Instead I chucked up the barrels in the lathe and sanded and polished the web area and the problem was solved!

I am suggesting you have the same issue. As mentioned in the above thread, if you could find one, a small base die will not address this issue. Either get a properly ground reamer with a larger web diameter or have the web area sanded.

Keep us updated on how you resolve your problem.

 

[BrentM]

I have sharpied a case up and even at .004 bump, I'm getting marks just above case web, and below shoulder. They aren't big marks but seem to be a problem. The one just above the web appears to be a significant mark. I've measured in this area with a set of calipers and get .552-.553. The point at which the resistance is gone, I've taken this area back down to .551 and bumped the shoulders .008. A body die and a neck die may help as far as sizing goes, but short of having those dies custom made, they aren't available. It also doesn't correct the problem. Is it safe to assume I may have chamber burrs In those spots?

to me this is your issue. Case head area expansion is preventing the case from cycling correctly. I'd either ream/polish the chamber or have a custom die cut to reduce the problem area diameter. I run a custom whidden for example on a PRC since at the .200 line certain brass needs more sizing to get it to fit. A body die might also be your answer, combined with a modified shell holder to get further down on the die taper.

 

[Salmonhead]

I fired 5 fireforming loads in a new chamber that's a cartridge necked up from .30 to .33 and shoulder from 35 deg to 40 deg. Part of determining if my cases expanded to chamber dimensions after one firing, I removed my firing pin, and I have a fixed blade extractor to see at what point my brass chambers without resistance. I've had to bump the shoulders .008 to get the brass to chamber without resistance. I've done various things to try to determine what may be causing this. It seems to be a problem to me. Anyone run into this, and what was the cause, and final outcome of it?

Thanks!

I ran into this with a remington made 300 wsm. After contacting Redding, I was informed it was a known problem with some wsm chambers that were too loose just in front of the web and the case would bulge there. The results I have are sizing down enough which caused a .012 shoulder bump. End result will be a case head separation at some point.

 

[Labwhisper]

IMO after reading every response and comment: don't let the horse get in front of the cart.

You report and provide pictoral evidence of a dmall area of contact when clambering an inked-up unsized cartridge. If this is caused by a burr (or other anomaly) in the chamber, that should be addressed first. I have experienced bothe tight chambers and tight dies. I would not expect to see the small mark in the ink as I see in your photo. (Post #20) I would expect to see marking around most of the circumference of the cartridge.

Next, .008 of shoulder movement before a cartridge chambers smoothly? It is not logical to me that your chamber would be that long while still having smaller (than spec) diameter at the .200 point. I would prefer seeing a measurement by micrometer rather than caliper.

Finally, I would like to see what a headspace gauge can tell us.

May be just me but I would want to answer these questions before spending money on custom dies or over working brass in effort to make it work smoothly.

On the other hand I could be all wet.

Just the ramblings of an old man.

 

[Tidesloe]

IMO after reading every response and comment: don't let the horse get in front of the cart.

You report and provide pictoral evidence of a dmall area of contact when clambering an inked-up unsized cartridge. If this is caused by a burr (or other anomaly) in the chamber, that should be addressed first. I have experienced bothe tight chambers and tight dies. I would not expect to see the small mark in the ink as I see in your photo. (Post #20) I would expect to see marking around most of the circumference of the cartridge.

Next, .008 of shoulder movement before a cartridge chambers smoothly? It is not logical to me that your chamber would be that long while still having smaller (than spec) diameter at the .200 point. I would prefer seeing a measurement by micrometer rather than caliper.

Finally, I would like to see what a headspace gauge can tell us.

May be just me but I would want to answer these questions before spending money on custom dies or over working brass in effort to make it work smoothly.

On the other hand I could be all wet.

Just the ramblings of an old man.

I do agree that the burr may be a minimum part of the problem. I don't yet know what the reamer dimension is at the .200 line but I'll find out today. I agree that the lack of contact all the way around the case makes me think cleaning up the burr will at the very least improve the problem if not eliminate it. I think that's where I'll start.

 

[ChrisInKY]

On the other hand I could be all wet.

Just the ramblings of an old man.

There's lots left to look at. Bumping the shoulders _that much_ just to get the round to chamber ... wow!!

The worst problem I ever encountered with 'sticky' brass was a batch of brass that was extra thick. Had to toss it.

I'd be looking at stuff everywhere with a magnifying glass.

Tidesloe: What am I seeing in the red circle above? Do you have the ability to cut a die in half across its circumference?