Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[edge]

If you did nothing but insert a tip into the small HP meplat of the SMK, especially a pointy one, I have little doubt that it would act as an obstruction to expansion.

SNIP.

Agree 100%, GG would sometimes get bent bullets when he shot newspaper and almost always the hollow point was plugged with paper.

Now chop the tip to 0.150 diameter and install a AB plastic tip and I doubt you would ever get a failure to expand and it would probably weigh a bit more than the std SMK...IMO

edge.

 

[edge]

Paul, I agree with you for the most part. My statement about the small tip was in answer to this...

That statement is just not true, if implying that the tip would aid in expasion which is what I believe his point is. If it was, all the SMK's and Bergers would have these tiny tips to help ensure expansion for hunting application.

SNIP

You completely misinterpreted my reply, Cut the tip off of a SMK to fit an AB tip and you are ONLY removing jacket, since there is no lead there!

Now add the tip to the 0.150 meplat and it will not change your SD as you mentioned in the previous post!

edge.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Montana and edge have both made some good points. Bottom line is, the tipped bullets I make with a .200" meplat will outperform a hollow point bullet every time when you get out past 1000 yards! I challenge anyone out there to show me a well expanded bullet with a hollow point (meplat) the size of a Berger or sierra at 1200-1300 fps impact, or even 1600' for that matter. The ONLY time a tip MIGHT inhibit expansion would be if the meplat were so small that a tip wouldn't aid with b.c. anyway!.......Rich

No argument from me Rich. The Bergers are designed to expand around 1800 fps. I suspect the heavier ones expand more readily than the lighter ones at lower velocities. Probably true of tipped bullets as well. If your bullets are expanding down to 1300 fps, that is something to take note of. With my 300 RUM shotting 230 Hybrids, i am getting close to 1500 yds of expansion velocity and not sure if I would ever pull the trigger on something farther than that, but a 210 gr bullet with a good BC that expanded down to 1300 fps could make a 30.06 a 1K plus hunting rifle.

When are ya gonna start mass producing them anyway?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

You completely misinterpreted my reply, Cut the tip off of a SMK to fit an AB tip and you are ONLY removing jacket, since there is no lead there!

Now add the tip to the 0.150 meplat and it will not change your SD as you mentioned in the previous post!

edge.

Gotcha, the hollow area that you are plugging up with plastic is very beneficial to expansion. I'm not sure which is better?

 

[elkaholic]

Paul, I agree with you for the most part. My statement about the small tip was in answer to this...

That statement is just not true, if implying that the tip would aid in expasion which is what I believe his point is. If it was, all the SMK's and Bergers would have these tiny tips to help ensure expansion for hunting application.

I might be able to find some data on the HP vs tip expansion but I don't need to. It's just a fact of physics. You take a tipped AB or BT bullet and remove the tip, expansion at close range and high velocity will be more explosive and at extended range the tipless AB will expand at lower velocities than the tipped bullet. Just a fact of life.

That said the larger tips may or may not be better expanders than the HP's depending on size, design and construction of the HP.

If you go back and read my earlier posts, I don't make a definitive statement that small HP's open better than large tips. I do point out that the Berger HP's seem to have a very high track record as evidenced by Broz' experiences last year. I also mentioned that failure of small HP's can probably also be traced to deformed or plugged HP's.

Bottom line for me is, I like the simplicity of the HP's and they are my preference for a hunting bullet, specifically the Bergers and CEB's

Mark.....I think you may have misunderstood my point? I agree that if you remove the tip and leave the same meplat size, the expansion will be there! The point I was trying to make was, with a Berger for instance, a .060" meplat hollow point will not expand at 1300' or even much higher where a bullet like the SXR will, with a tip and .200" at the base of the tip........Rich

 

[elkaholic]

No argument from me Rich. The Bergers are designed to expand around 1800 fps. I suspect the heavier ones expand more readily than the lighter ones at lower velocities. Probably true of tipped bullets as well. If your bullets are expanding down to 1300 fps, that is something to take note of. With my 300 RUM shotting 230 Hybrids, i am getting close to 1500 yds of expansion velocity and not sure if I would ever pull the trigger on something farther than that, but a 210 gr bullet with a good BC that expanded down to 1300 fps could make a 30.06 a 1K plus hunting rifle.

When are ya gonna start mass producing them anyway?

Cancel my last response!.....Rich

 

[500mag_guy]

Alright I've read through 16 pages of this thread until my eyes started hurting from looking at the screen for so long..

Hats off to Berger for being so involved!!

The only Berger that I have ever had a pin hole in / pin hole out was with 185gr berger vld hunting out of a 300rum on a cow I had walked up on, she was about 200 yds away laying behind a large boulder and was locked onto me no way to get a body shot or even move a muscle. I decided to go for a head shot and to my surprise I drilled her. As I was walking up to her I was expecting to see a mess made of her head. When I got to her the only thing that was out of place were both of her eyes were out of the sockets and hanging down. Pin hole in pin hole out. I'd assume that this was due to being so close without alot of resistance upon impact??

Later in the season Same rifle same bullets I shot a large mulie buck that was across the ridge from me right at 450 yds. He was chasing a doe up the hill and in fear of him going over the top I dropped down held on the back of his head as he was walking up the ridge and send it off. Bullet hit him directly between the shoulders and dropped him. He didnt move a muscle so i figured he was done. I made it to the bottom and about have way up the ridge he was on, I look over as he was dragging himself with his front legs / rolling down the snowy hillside. I made my way over in his direction and put a round right at the base of his head with my 40s&w. upon examination the berger bullet appeared to have blown up on impact. It did damage his spine but entrance damage was the size of my fist on the top of the shoulders. I say entrance damage due to the lacking of a hole. Not sure why this happened...

These are the only two out of the ordinary experiences I've ever had. Every other animal I've taken with Bergers have dropped dead on the spot!

Alright done with story time... Now for questions,

I plan to use 230gr Targets in my 300rum this year. Will the (target) part of this be a problem??

 

[elkaholic]

Alright I've read through 16 pages of this thread until my eyes started hurting from looking at the screen for so long..

Hats off to Berger for being so involved!!

The only Berger that I have ever had a pin hole in / pin hole out was with 185gr berger vld hunting out of a 300rum on a cow I had walked up on, she was about 200 yds away laying behind a large boulder and was locked onto me no way to get a body shot or even move a muscle. I decided to go for a head shot and to my surprise I drilled her. As I was walking up to her I was expecting to see a mess made of her head. When I got to her the only thing that was out of place were both of her eyes were out of the sockets and hanging down. Pin hole in pin hole out. I'd assume that this was due to being so close without alot of resistance upon impact??

Later in the season Same rifle same bullets I shot a large mulie buck that was across the ridge from me right at 450 yds. He was chasing a doe up the hill and in fear of him going over the top I dropped down held on the back of his head as he was walking up the ridge and send it off. Bullet hit him directly between the shoulders and dropped him. He didnt move a muscle so i figured he was done. I made it to the bottom and about have way up the ridge he was on, I look over as he was dragging himself with his front legs / rolling down the snowy hillside. I made my way over in his direction and put a round right at the base of his head with my 40s&w. upon examination the berger bullet appeared to have blown up on impact. It did damage his spine but entrance damage was the size of my fist on the top of the shoulders. I say entrance damage due to the lacking of a hole. Not sure why this happened...

These are the only two out of the ordinary experiences I've ever had. Every other animal I've taken with Bergers have dropped dead on the spot!

Alright done with story time... Now for questions,

I plan to use 230gr Targets in my 300rum this year. Will the (target) part of this be a problem??

The high impact at 200 yards should cause MORE explosiveness. This is one of those cases that people report occasionally. My belief is, it is either a tip that was closed, it filled with hair or ??, and didn't allow any hydraulic action to take place. Could have been a combination of both? Broz would be the one to ask about the 230's but my understanding is, people are using them with success although they are tougher than the 215's. As far as the target designation goes, the Berger hunting bullets now use to be their target bullets. The new target bullets have a thicker jacket......Rich

 

[500mag_guy]

Thanks for the reply Rich,

It is very possible that I could have been a round that was in the magazine from the year before that had been slammed around the magazine when shooting as another member had mentioned earlier in this thread damaging the tip.

Any thoughts on the exploding Berger on the mulie? It really doesn't matter because I will always use Berger in ever application that I can! It'd just be nice to know.

I will get a hold of Jeff and see what his thoughts are.

The high impact at 200 yards should cause MORE explosiveness. This is one of those cases that people report occasionally. My belief is, it is either a tip that was closed, it filled with hair or ??, and didn't allow any hydraulic action to take place. Could have been a combination of both? Broz would be the one to ask about the 230's but my understanding is, people are using them with success although they are tougher than the 215's. As far as the target designation goes, the Berger hunting bullets now use to be their target bullets. The new target bullets have a thicker jacket......Rich

 

[bigngreen]

The high impact at 200 yards should cause MORE explosiveness. This is one of those cases that people report occasionally. My belief is, it is either a tip that was closed, it filled with hair or ??, and didn't allow any hydraulic action to take place. Could have been a combination of both? Broz would be the one to ask about the 230's but my understanding is, people are using them with success although they are tougher than the 215's. As far as the target designation goes, the Berger hunting bullets now use to be their target bullets. The new target bullets have a thicker jacket......Rich

I was sitting behind Broz son as he smoked a couple antelope last year with his 300 win and 230 Bergers and can attest to the fact they they are extremely lethal, farthest one piled up and the second one took the hit at tried to move but had a hard time since her lungs were hanging in the sage brush. I was impressed The 230 from a RUM should be most excellent!!!

 

[bigngreen]

Thanks for the reply Rich,

It is very possible that I could have been a round that was in the magazine from the year before that had been slammed around the magazine when shooting as another member had mentioned earlier in this thread damaging the tip.

Any thoughts on the exploding Berger on the mulie? It really doesn't matter because I will always use Berger in ever application that I can! It'd just be nice to know.

I will get a hold of Jeff and see what his thoughts are.

The first bullet opened but it was so fast that it blew the nose of leaving a caliber hole in and out, I've seen this a few times and then you open them up and it looks like a blender cut loose!

Also seen the same thing you had on a deer, when that bullet uncorks at the top of the shoulders in that heavy muscle it will often blow upwards and back since that is a very easy path for it to go, a little lower and it augers a hole through! One reason I put all my Bergers touch in behind the shoulder and shoot the heaviest I can, you'll have a more harmonious out come

 

[500mag_guy]

How far out were they if you recall? How do you think they would perform on a solid shoulder hit?? Never intentional of coarse.

Ill have to have Jeff send me some pictures lol I know how he loves to take pictures of holes!

I am super excited to report back with the results. Possibly as soon as this Sunday! opening of legal wolf hunting!!gun)

I was sitting behind Broz son as he smoked a couple antelope last year with his 300 win and 230 Bergers and can attest to the fact they they are extremely lethal, farthest one piled up and the second one took the hit at tried to move but had a hard time since her lungs were hanging in the sage brush. I was impressed The 230 from a RUM should be most excellent!!!

 

[barnesuser28]

I am super excited to report back with the results. Possibly as soon as this Sunday! opening of "legal" wolf hunting!!gun)

 

[500mag_guy]

I was wondering how long it would take