My new rifle. (lets start with the action)

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by RangerBrad, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

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    All right fellas, I have long pondered my next rifle build. My first was a 25-06 built around a Marlin MR-7 platform( wich I love).
    The first problem I discovered was the unavialbility of stocks ( I'm stuck with the origial wanut one), The next was that when I built my rounds using Berger 115 gr. bullets they fit in the magazine but just bareley.
    Lets get this one right from the beginning.
    I want a 300winmag. After reading Chuck Hawks write up on actions Finest Bolt Action Rifles Ever Produced I want either a Weatherby Mark V, Vangaurd or winchester action( Ive always been a big fan of the winchester 3 position safety).
    I will be loading for the Berger 215gr hybrid. I would be Happy with a floor plate but much happier with a clip magazine.
    It is imperative that I have no problem finding stock choices and that after the build not running into issues with rounds being to long for my magazine.
    I will be looking for used actions that can be blueprinted/trued to acomodate these goals.
    What do I need to be looking for and more importantly need to be watching out for?
    How can I insure I won't have a problem with rounds being to long?
    We'll start here and as I progress in procurment we'll move to the next required item for the build. Then finnaly a trip to the smith's.
    Thank's fellas for your advice. Brad
     
  2. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    I always thought I'd prefer a clip as well, but many rifles later with no clips (except my original Rem 7400 semiauto and my daughters' 223) I prefer the floor plate. I would also suggest that you may end up with a smaller box if you choose a clip, and that will affect how long you can load your rounds. As the 300 Weatherby is longer than the 300 Win Mag you can likely fit a long 300 Win load into a Vanguard or Mark V with no problems.

    There are clip systems made for the Vanguard/Howa but they are for the 30-06 sized cartridge, not the 300 Win or 300 Weatherby size. I don't think that anyone makes one for a Mark V.

    Get some measurements of boxes from Mark V's and Vanguards if those interest you, and see what works. Once you verify the size then go from there.
     
  3. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    I am with Dr. Vette on this one.

    I've got a couple bolt action rifles with clips, they are more hindrance than a help.

    They tend to shorten the OAL of our rounds and then we are even more limited in that aspect which you wanted to avoid. With some standard mags, we can get "extended boxes" which is going the direction you're wanting.

    We are more inclined to loose, bend, damage or drop in the mud these types of magazines. I've had to backtrack more than once because my spare fell out of my pocket or I inadvertently released the one from the gun.

    If they fit relatively flush with the bottom of the stock, they only hold a few rounds; whereas a conventional "bottom metal" floor plate type will usually easily hold 4 and sometimes 5 or 6 depending on the cartridge. Don't take this part to gospel when it comes to the 300 WinMag. I am speaking of 30-06 and smaller.

    I know for fact I can reload a conventional mag faster than a single stack detachable. The double stack detachable (like what's on an AR-15) is a different story; they load quite nicely compared to the single stack types I've seen for bolt guns. I don't find those single stack bolt rifle mags easy to load at all, but maybe that's just me.

    Last but not least, if we're manipulating our bolts (especially fluted bolts) with one of these detachable mags inserted & unloaded; then the bolt flutes tend to grab and drag across the feed lips, binding the bolt and making a terrible noise in the process. If it's bad enough, it will bend the feed lips of the mag.

    This isn't even a consideration with a standard rifle mag. But if we're practicing bolt manipulation and have any pressure on the bottom of the mag.........like pressure from your hand or pack or whatever, that's when this binding problem happens. I've seen it with the last 4 magazines I've had. Some filing on the feed lips remedied it but too much filing and the next thing to happen is we get feeding problems!

    IMO, The downs outweigh the ups when it comes to the single stack detachables in a bolt action hunting rifle. I'd stick with the standard hinged floorplate bottom metal. Hunters have been getting by mighty fine with these for years.
     
  4. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    I am not a fan of the Howa, its does not accomplish anything others do not & is on the lower side as far as accessory availability goes.

    The MK V is a large, robust action with a large internal magazine. On the other hand, there is even less aftermarket support for the MK V.

    The Winny offers controlled round feed, 3-pos safety, integral recoil lug blah, blah, blah. Strong action, better aftermarket support etc.

    As far as running a Detachable Bottom Metal system (Magazines & clips are 2 different things). This really depends on what your intent goes. The Accuracy International 300wm mags should have enough room for the 215's.

    I recently put a 300wm together with a Defiance Deviant action (spiral fluted) & AICS chassis. Feeds like glass, no bolt binding in any position, mag changes are quick & easy. Down side, HEAVY, Expensive stock, expensive magazines.... always trade offs :rolleyes:

    If you're a long range hunter mainly, I honestly wouldn't run any magazine system. I'd fit a single shot follower & rock on, if you like to play on the long range steel courses or are expecting multiple shots more often than not... i'd skip the internal mags (not a fan) & roll with a DBM that accepts AI mags.

    Just my way of skinning this cat & as you know what opinions are akin to :cool:


    t
     
  5. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    Unlike my good friend Outlaw, I do like the Howa/Vanguard actions. As Chuck Hawks points out they have many features of a well built action such as one piece ported bolt with M16 style extractor and integral recoil lug. I also like the flat bottom receiver. The metric threads are really a non issue as they can easily be changed to standard threads. Although not a great selection of after market parts, you can get Manners or McMillan stocks and with#5 contour or smaller, you can get B&C. Any bases that fit a 700 will fit a Howa and you can get a 3 position safety Timney trigger

    A 300 WM shooting 215's will be a little tight. About a grain or so loss in capacity - no huge deal. You will have to seat them about .100 into the case to make them fit the mag. If I were going to do a 300 mag in a Howa it would be the unbelted, shorter 300 Dakota.

    As for the Mark V, it's generally a very good action but the multi lugs are almost impossible to get lapped for equal contact. At least one well known smith on this site will not give an accuracy guarantees with them and neither will my local smith. Also less after market parts than for a Howa

    Of course the best option is always a full custom build.
     
  6. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    I thought I might get that response :cool: Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the M-16 extractor & integral recoil lug as well. However, I still harbor a few issues with the Howa, mainly it's point of origin.


    I would try hard to find a reasonable custom action as your last statement points out. L/A Stillers can usually be found at a good price if one keeps their eyes open.


    t
     
  7. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    You thought right :D
     
  8. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    Well Brad, taking my back ground and your screen name into account, I am going to go out on a limb and guess your influenced by other forces, thus the "need" or should I say "want" for a detachable box mag on a bolt gun. For hunting however. there is no need, in fact a single shot will do you quite well in more ways than one.

    I had 3 custom rifles, before I found a super deal on a Vanguard action, Tom Borden had one on his site. I had a few other parts laying around, so I asked Kevin Cram to turn my action into a long range death machine, he had a little help from Tom Manners and Kirby Allen, but the rifles lines are all Kevin.

    I suppose what I am getting at, is your initial thread about the Vanguard was great and that action will treat you right for years. Sure you are having issues finding parts etc, but I assure you they are there you just have to look and ask.

    Here is my 300 win mag on a Vanguard action, It is currently stripped apart as I was not using it, tried to sell it, there were no bites, so I decided to have Kevin Cram change it up to something more usable for my current situation, now I just need to get it to him.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

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    Thank's for the replies fellas, and nice rifle ICANHITHIMMAN. Would lets say a 300 rum or 338 action in any of the pre mentioned actions work for this 300 winmag build? That should make for a longer magazine wouldn't it?. If I went with Winchester it would also save me on scope mounts and such as I have a few around to fit the Winchester. Brad
     
  10. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    Brad, what cartridge do you want to shoot and what degree of rifle? These are questions you have to ask and deside before you start a thread like this. A RUM cartridge will not work in a Howa action. It will work in the Mark V, but good luck getting all the little lugs on the same page

    If you want good advice, ask in order of requirements. Do you want a 300 WM or do you want a RUM? The answer to that will greatly affect the recommended actin.
     
  11. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I din't mean to confuse. I want a 300wm no doubt but wasnt sure if larger caliber actions could be made into a 300wm. Brad
     
  12. cummin_un_glued

    cummin_un_glued Well-Known Member

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    OP, I personally love the vanguard rifles but with your choice of chambering would lean me toward something else with your bullet preference simply because of the mag box length.

    my 7mmx300win I have to single feed with the 180gr bergers because mag box is only 3.530" long

    [​IMG]
     
  13. chad44

    chad44 Well-Known Member

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong here. When building a rifle you can simply send your smith a dummy round that will fit your mag and have him ream to whatever specs you want no?
     
  14. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    There was a misunderstanding. Actions are not made by cartridge. Typically they are 2 sizes short and long. These sizes are not standardized, they differ slightly between manufacturers. You can do yourself a big favor by researching these details yourself as they are readily available facts and not opinions. I.e., an R700 25-06 action is the same as an R700 375RUM action. They ares are the same. both Rem 700 long actions. The only diff may be the matching of the feedrails and mag box. Mag box dimension is the same. You can also figure how well a particular case, bullet and action will fit by doing the math. All the dimensions are available

    If you want opinions on features and quality of various products such as actions, brass, stocks, barrels, etc., then these type of threads are a good way to solicit that.