Improving the 308 Win performance

[Bravo 4]

Maybe still doubtful

That's exactly The statement I'm referring to.

Doubt away brother, it's your prerogative.
I'm not saying that every .308 can beat every .300 WinMag, or even every 30-06. That would be silly, and plain ignorant. But if you don't think that something along the lines of Wachsmann's .308 pushing a 195 ELD-M at 2700 fps won't outperform at least half a dozen of the M2010 .300 WinMags I have in my vault at work, then all I can say is rock on brother. I'm not tore up about it.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I think some missed the point of the OPs original post. "Improving the 308 Win performance", no where is he stating "making a 308 as good as a 300 WM" or ……. He's just trying to get feedback on improving the 308 and sharing his experience with the bullets his company produces and the powders and loads he's used. Sharing experiences. What's ridiculous is some ask questions that have been answered REPEATEDLY already in the thread. Read folks…..

 

[JAYgs8163]

2920 from a 150gr bullet in a 20" barrel is hauling ***. How are you getting the velocity.

The info you're looking for is in the very first post. Load data included…. See post#1, LV stands for "LeverEvolution" powder by Hodgdon.

 

[HunterMann]

.296 cal?

The current G11 round is 0.306 caliber, although I have seen .307 quoted for the other versions.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Doubt away brother, it's your prerogative.
I'm not saying that every .308 can beat every .300 WinMag, or even every 30-06. That would be silly, and plain ignorant. But if you don't think that something along the lines of Wachsmann's .308 pushing a 195 ELD-M at 2700 fps won't outperform at least half a dozen of the M2010 .300 WinMags I have in my vault at work, then all I can say is rock on brother. I'm not tore up about it.

No doubt light loads in a 300WM with light bullets can be inferior to a heavy weight hot 308. I'm not disputing that. How I read the Post was that the higher BC 190/195 loaded in the 308 Win can be superior to the same loaded 300WM. That just is not the case. Unless I read this incorrectly. My 308 loads are not slouch. None can or will match my 300WM loads with identical bullets.

 

[DoneNOut]

With use of Hammer bullets one can make a cartridge punch above it's weight class in terminal performance by going lighter bullets and relying upon the superior mechanical design and advantage baked into a Hammer.

For example:

308 WIN become a 30-06
30-06 SPR becomes a 300 WIN
300 WIN becomes a China balloon shooter and so on.

 

[VLD Pilot]

With use of Hammer bullets one can make a cartridge punch above it's weight class in terminal performance by going lighter bullets and relying upon the superior mechanical design and advantage baked into a Hammer.

For example:

308 WIN become a 30-06
30-06 SPR becomes a 300 WIN
300 WIN becomes a China balloon shooter and so on.

Makes sense just like elevation does the exact same thing.

 

[Wachsmann]

Regardless of what we have we all want to take our best options to the woods when we go. But with what has happen over the last several years and the impacts it had on the supply chain at some point I got tired of always trying to find cases, right type of slow magnum burning powder, magnum primers, etc., etc., etc., to feed my 300 Rum. It left a really bad taste in my mouth so I started looking into how can I get a short action traditional cartridge to preform and how fare could I go with it. Not to mention I like to shoot a lot and tinker a lot with different bullets. What was the most abundant easiest to find ammo on the shelf during all of covid. I never once seen 308 win sold out. Also the 7mm-08 was a sleeper that did not get a lot of attention. So I picked up one of each. Then I went to town on the 308 trying to see what it could do. Anything from a 168 up to a 220 grain. For BC department I have about 3 boxes of ELDX 212's. I'm still not quite satisficed with the velocity and pressure that I got from CFE223. It gave me the best velocities but it was always right at the point I started to get ejector swipes and this is also where I seen some of the best group at and then through in a 80 plus degrees day and the load went completely south. I know full well what I was trying to achieve and it may not be possible and I probably would of been more satisficed with a 30-06 for this type of testing but I wasn't opening myself up the options of much slower than normal powders that are not listed for the 308win. I was looking and asking and I got the standard answer all the time when I asked. That powder wont work its way to slow. So I stuck with all the listed book powders and I loaded to my pleasures not really being satisfied completely. And I be the first to say chasing the velocity and small groups is like an addiction sometimes The 7-08 I was able to get it to about where I want it at with 168ABLR's. I still have one more powder I would like to try for additional speed and possible lower pressure (Superformer). Books show an additional velocity gain over 6.5staball. But back to the 308 I think the LVR powder is a perspective game changer as for getting where I might want to be at with the 308. As for my RUM for the life of me it was probably one of the best high velocity, heavy hitting, 30 cal cartridges out there and Remington along with other component markets decided to dry this one up. I was once told in an email basically the manufacturing industry was tired of loosing prophets to the hand loaders and would only be sending out any extra not sold brass to there XXX companies; that these would be the only components provided for hand loaders at your local sporting goods store. What a kick in the teeth to all the hand loaders and this is some of the reason I went to looking at short action cartridges and seeing what they can do. I hope we get a gun loving, gun touting republican's, or some party that is much more gun friendly back in office on this next go around. Not that I'm done with my RUM. I also have the exactly same rifle in a 264win mag. I haven't put any bullets down the 264 yet. Probably do some 135 or 140 Berger's this year. Currently letting things dry out a little where I like to go shooting. I got stuck last time I went. The ground/road was much softer than I thought. But yes this is just me. MY wife calls it my addiction and there are time I question myself as well.

 

[nralifer]

I never claimed to be of high intelligence.

Don't sell yourself short. I think you have plenty of intelligence. I look at cartridges and bullets separately. Cartridges are for launching bullets at a given speed but once the bullet leaves the barrel it's all up to the bullet. Any bullet impacting at a given speed will behave the same regardless of the cartridge used to launch it. Exactly how the bullet behaves in the target is a function of multiple factors none of which have anything to do withe the cartridge other than the impact velocity as long as the distance is considered. Two exact bullets launched from 2 different rifles at significantly different speeds will behave equally the same if hitting the same target at the same speed. The bigger cartridge launching the bullet at a higher speed can be used at a greater distance from the target to get the bullet to impact at the same speed. Two significantly different bullets hitting an animal target at the same speed will behave very differently due mainly to their materials and construction. The cartridge used has nothing to do with the bullet behavior other than impart the speed to the bullet. Viewed this way a 308Win isn't inherently " better" than s 300 WM other than the fact that the WM cartridge can ultimately launch a given bullet at a higher speed.

 

[nralifer]

No doubt light loads in a 300WM with light bullets can be inferior to a heavy weight hot 308. I'm not disputing that. How I read the Post was that the higher BC 190/195 loaded in the 308 Win can be superior to the same loaded 300WM. That just is not the case. Unless I read this incorrectly. My 308 loads are not slouch. None can or will match my 300WM loads with identical bullets.

I agree with you. Given the same bullet the larger capacity cartridge will push the bullet faster. After that it is up to the bullet as to whether it can take the stresses of the higher impact velocity.

 

[nralifer]

Regardless of what we have we all want to take our best options to the woods when we go. But with what has happen over the last several years and the impacts it had on the supply chain at some point I got tired of always trying to find cases, right type of slow magnum burning powder, magnum primers, etc., etc., etc., to feed my 300 Rum. It left a really bad taste in my mouth so I started looking into how can I get a short action traditional cartridge to preform and how fare could I go with it. Not to mention I like to shoot a lot and tinker a lot with different bullets. What was the most abundant easiest to find ammo on the shelf during all of covid. I never once seen 308 win sold out. Also the 7mm-08 was a sleeper that did not get a lot of attention. So I picked up one of each. Then I went to town on the 308 trying to see what it could do. Anything from a 168 up to a 220 grain. For BC department I have about 3 boxes of ELDX 212's. I'm still not quite satisficed with the velocity and pressure that I got from CFE223. It gave me the best velocities but it was always right at the point I started to get ejector swipes and this is also where I seen some of the best group at and then through in a 80 plus degrees day and the load went completely south. I know full well what I was trying to achieve and it may not be possible and I probably would of been more satisficed with a 30-06 for this type of testing but I wasn't opening myself up the options of much slower than normal powders that are not listed for the 308win. I was looking and asking and I got the standard answer all the time when I asked. That powder wont work its way to slow. So I stuck with all the listed book powders and I loaded to my pleasures not really being satisfied completely. And I be the first to say chasing the velocity and small groups is like an addiction sometimes The 7-08 I was able to get it to about where I want it at with 168ABLR's. I still have one more powder I would like to try for additional speed and possible lower pressure (Superformer). Books show an additional velocity gain over 6.5staball. But back to the 308 I think the LVR powder is a perspective game changer as for getting where I might want to be at with the 308. As for my RUM for the life of me it was probably one of the best high velocity, heavy hitting, 30 cal cartridges out there and Remington along with other component markets decided to dry this one up. I was once told in an email basically the manufacturing industry was tired of loosing prophets to the hand loaders and would only be sending out any extra not sold brass to there XXX companies; that these would be the only components provided for hand loaders at your local sporting goods store. What a kick in the teeth to all the hand loaders and this is some of the reason I went to looking at short action cartridges and seeing what they can do. I hope we get a gun loving, gun touting republican's, or some party that is much more gun friendly back in office on this next go around. Not that I'm done with my RUM. I also have the exactly same rifle in a 264win mag. I haven't put any bullets down the 264 yet. Probably do some 135 or 140 Berger's this year. Currently letting things dry out a little where I like to go shooting. I got stuck last time I went. The ground/road was much softer than I thought. But yes this is just me. MY wife calls it my addiction and there are time I question myself as well.

What speed do you think you can get out of your 308 Win using the 212ELDX? Don't you think a lighter bullet with a higher BC might work better in the 308Win?

 

[bamban]

I wonder if I were to chamber a 28 inch 308 with my FTR reamer and use the brass I have for my 277 Fury designed to run at 80K.

To me the 175 BD2 would be the near perfect for a compromise.

Please, don't tell me go Magnum, this thread is about improving the 308. Just FYI, I have four 300WMs, a 30 Nos, 280AI, 7RM, two 30-06, one of which I run the 215 at 2837. Six 308s.

I enjoy pushing the limits safely. I remember when high power switched to ARs, I was told I had a death wish pushing the 80 VLDs at around 2850 through 20 inch barrel when lots of people run theirs at 2600, maybe 2700 by a few.

The vindication was when I took the same ammo and ran them in a 223 AR space gun at 3050 and proceeded to take the cheap wood in 97 at 1000 yards shooting against all kinds of magnums, Palmas, and various bolt guns. The 1st time the 223 won the state iron sight match.

The same hot rod ammo through the gas gun took the high score at 600 against various bolt guns in various calibers.

Had I not pushed the envelope on the 223 the wins might not have been feasible. There is a penalty when pushing the pressure envelope, one of which is shorter brass life. I did not care, a small sacrifice to win a match.

 

[nralifer]

I wonder if I were to chamber a 28 inch 308 with my FTR reamer and use the brass I have for my 277 Fury designed to run at 80K.

To me the 175 BD2 would be the near perfect for a compromise.

Please, don't tell me go Magnum, this thread is about improving the 308. Just FYI, I have four 300WMs, a 30 Nos, 280AI, 7RM, two 30-06, one of which I run the 215 at 2837. Six 308s.

I enjoy pushing the limits safely. I remember when high power switched to ARs, I was told I had a death wish pushing the 80 VLDs at around 2850 through 20 inch barrel when lots of people run theirs at 2600, maybe 2700 by a few.

The vindication was when I took the same ammo and ran them in a 223 AR space gun at 3050 and proceeded to take the cheap wood in 97 at 1000 yards shooting against all kinds of magnums, Palmas, and various bolt guns. The 1st time the 223 won the state iron sight match.

The same hot rod ammo through the gas gun took the high score at 600 against various bolt guns in various calibers.

Had I not pushed the envelope on the 223 the wins might not have been feasible. There is a penalty when pushing the pressure envelope, one of which is shorter brass life. I did not care, a small sacrifice to win a match.

View attachment 436428View attachment 436429

Makes perfect sense to try a necked up 277 Fury brass to 30 cal and see how far one could push a given bullet. I would use the strongest action and increase powder charge slowly. The potential problem is the possibility that the Fury brass is able to handle the high pressure better than the action is able to handle the resultant bolt thrust. Hard for me to know what the early signs of excessive bolt thrust would be.

 

[bamban]

Makes perfect sense to try a necked up 277 Fury brass to 30 cal and see how far one could push a given bullet. I would use the strongest action and increase powder charge slowly. The potential problem is the possibility that the Fury brass is able to handle the high pressure better than the action is able to handle the resultant bolt thrust. Hard for me to know what the early signs of excessive bolt thrust would be.

The semi-retired benchrest gunsmith who did initial testing with the cartridge gave me some pointers on how to handle the 80K pressure with the 700.