Improving the 308 Win performance

[nralifer]

This thread would be dedicated to ways to improve the performance of the 308 Win or the 7.62x51 mm cartridge without wildcatting the case. Experienced and innovative reloaders should find this interesting and are encouraged to participate. The 308Win is so versatile, inherently accurate and commonly used, and yet its performance in terms of MV, trajectory and speed is a bit mediocre. I am sure it can out perform the 3006. To start with I offer up my favorite hunting load I have used for the past 6/7 years in the 308Win. The 150 gr BD or BD2 with 49 gr of Leverevolution going 2920 fps from a 1:10, 20"Douglas barrel in a short action rifle. The same load from a 24" Bartlein 1:9 twist barrel goes 3050 fps. This load would be a pretty decent long range Elk load to 900 yds or so.

 

[sea2summit]

900 yards on an Elk? I'm seeing less than 550 ft/bls at 900y even if you're pushing it at 3050 fps.

I'm also sort of curious what you're saying it about it outperforming 30-06 when your standard velocities for a 150grn load are going to be 2850-3000 fps. Let alone going to a heavier bullet with the '06 like a 180grn you'll still be high 2700's starting velocity.

But all that aside. I've got two favored loads for my .308s, 168 SMKs I don't push them real fast but I've taken hundreds of hogs from 0-250 yards and a lot of deer. My new favorite, within the last three years, are 110 V-Max moving at about 2950 fps out of a short-ish barrel is doing amazing work for me at the ranges I hunt from coyotes to hogs to deer and was shockingly accurrate, don't tear up magazines, and feed well through a semi.

 

[nralifer]

900 yards on an Elk? I'm seeing less than 550 ft/bls at 900y even if you're pushing it at 3050 fps.

I'm also sort of curious what you're saying it about it outperforming 30-06 when you're standard velocities for a 150grn load are going to be 2850-3000 fps. Let alone going to a heavier bullet with the '06 like a 180grn you'll still be high 2700's starting velocity.

But all that aside. I've got two favored loads for my .308s, 168 SMKs I don't push them real fast but I've taken hundreds of hogs from 0-250 yards and a lot of deer. My new favorite, within the last three years, are 110 V-Max moving at about 2950 fps out of a short-ish barrel is doing amazing work for me at the ranges I hunt from coyotes to hogs to deer and was shockingly accurrate, don't tear up magazines, and feed well through a semi.

 

[BillLarson]

When you start talking killing elk....
from experience if they are excited or alerted...... Like a whitetail deer only worse....
they can seem running on pure adrenalin juice....
and your talking going for one hell of a walk.....
Yes..... you can kill an elk with a .22 RF....
Trust me...... use enough gun and save on your legs.....
OMHO.... let the flames roll.....

 

[nralifer]

I have been using for years the 150 BD and BD2 bullets with MVs of 2920 from a 20"barrel and 3050 from a 24" barrel using Leverevolution which outperforms most 3006 loads. Have killed African Plains Game and a large Alaskan Coastal Black Bear all with single shot DRT kills. The attachment is a JBM trajectory calculation of our 175 gr BD2 bullet propelled from a 24" barrel which I think is entirely achievable for the 308 Win at 4500 ft elevation, which is not an unusual elevation to hunt Elk. The higher you go the better. At 900 yds that bullet still has 1300 ft# of energy snd is traveling at 1836 fps which is at least 100 fps more than is required to get it to expand. What makes this possible, and it is the point of the thread, is using a bullet with a high enough BC that will expand reliably at 1700 fps impact. That has already been done by a friend of mine using our 195 gr bullet with a higher BC from a 300WM at 1225 yds.

 

[Mark37082]

I am not sure I would qualify as innovative or experienced compared to many on this forum, but I'm always interested in wringing out the best performance out of a cartridge. I've owned and shot a few 30 06 and currently have a 308 Win that is my go to eastern whitetail stick. Both cartridges work well for their purposes. If you are talking elk at long range, there is really no replacement for displacement IMHO.

 

[sea2summit]

I have been using for years the 150 BD and BD2 bullets with MVs of 2920 from a 22" barrel and 3050 from a 24" barrel using Leverevolution which outperforms most 3006 loads. Have killed African Plains Game and a large Alaskan Coastal Black Bear all with single shot DRT kills. The attachment is a JBM trajectory calculation of our 175 gr BD2 bullet propelled from a 24" barrel which I think is entirely achievable for the 308 Win at 4500 ft elevation, which is not an unusual elevation to hunt Elk. The higher you go the better. At 900 yds that bullet still has 1300 ft# of energy snd is traveling at 1836 fps which is at least 100 fps more than is required to get it to expand. What makes this possible, and it is the point of the thread, is using a bullet with a high enough BC that will expand reliably at 1700 fps impact. That has already been done by a friend of mine using our 195 gr bullet with a higher BC from a 300WM at 1225 yds.

Maybe I'm confused, in the first post you said the 150 BD at 3050 was your 900y elk gun, but now you're saying it's the 175 bd at a velocity you "think" is achievable? And this is the basis for saying it's better than 30-06?

The .308 is a great round, probably my favorite hunting round...but I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to prove/say.

 

[ATH]

The 308 is a great and efficient round but there isn't a rational discussion to be had on performance. Within a given caliber, a large capacity case will deliver the same bullet faster or a heavier, higher BC bullet as fast as a smaller case. In no way will a handloaded 308 out perform a handloaded 30-06.

If I'm going to chase elk at 900yds I'm going to leave all the 30 calibers at home and take my 338 Edge.

 

[nralifer]

I am not sure I would qualify as innovative or experienced compared to many on this forum, but I'm always interested in wringing out the best performance out of a cartridge. I've owned and shot a few 30 06 and currently have a 308 Win that is my go to eastern whitetail stick. Both cartridges work well for their purposes. If you are talking elk at long range, there is really no replacement for displacement IMHO.

True, but as in automobiles we can get a lot more out if any given displacement than we used to. A good example is my brother. He has modified his 300ZX to the max getting over 580 HP at the rear wheels from a 190 cu in engine dynomometer proven. Large rifle primers. Single base powder low BC jacketed lead core bullets were innovations in WWI. Relative progress in small arms ammunition has been slow since relative to that seen in artillery. Today a 155 mm US M777 can shoot a gps guided projectile 24 miles and hit within10 ft of the intended target (0.27MOA accuracy!). So figuring out the right components to improve the performance of the 308Win seems like child's play.

 

[BrentM]

So you say with the newest tech you can improve the 308, With that same tech you can also improve the 3006. I see this is a possibility with all cases. Just look At what some creed guys are claiming to get with 40 grains of powder, same or better than a 6.5-284.

 

[nralifer]

Maybe I'm confused, in the first post you said the 150 BD at 3050 was your 900y elk gun, but now you're saying it's the 175 bd at a velocity you "think" is achievable? And this is the basis for saying it's better than 30-06?

The .308 is a great round, probably my favorite hunting round...but I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to prove/say.

Maybe I'm confused, in the first post you said the 150 BD at 3050 was your 900y elk gun, but now you're saying it's the 175 bd at a velocity you "think" is achievable? And this is the basis for saying it's better than 30-06?

The .308 is a great round, probably my favorite hunting round...but I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to prove/say.

Maybe you should do the math. The G1BC of the 150 gr .308 BD2 bullet is 0.515. At 3050 fps, which I get all the time from my 24" 1:9 Bartlein using a SAAMI 308 chamber loaded to 2.980" to mag feed at 5000 ft elevation which is where a lot of Elk hunting is done, at 59degreesF 50% humidity and 1 ATM corrected to that altitude the bullet at 900 yds is going over 1800 fps and has 1080 ft# energy. The bullet expands at 1700 fps impact. A 150 gr copper Etip in a 3006 per listed data in the 2021 Hodgdon Annual Manual from a 24" barrel has a max listed MV of 2947 fps. The BC of that bullet is listed at G1=0.469 (see Noslers pic below). I did not propose this thread to argue the point of whether the 308Win is better or worse than anything else. I apologize if you are getting that impression. The purpose of the thread is to stimulate discussion on what modern components can improve the performance of the 308 Win with the idea that concepts developed along similar lines could do the same for other cartridges. In my mind there are quite a few things that can be done beyond just using a higher energy powder. I would like to see what other guys have done along those lines.

 

[Critter Picker]

OK I'll play. My favorite hunting load is a Sierra 165 GK propelled by 45.5 H4895 and lit by a Federal GM210M for 2850 out of a 22" 1-10 barrel.

For ringing steel or punching paper I load a 155 Sierria Palma with 50.1 Gr. of 2000 MR for 2827 out of a 24" 1-10 . Use GM210M primer. Not earth shattering velocity but will shoot under 2" @300 yards all day (5 shots)

For my handgun I'm shooting a 165 Nosler BT loaded with 40.0 Gr of IMR 4895 Fedreal GM210M primer Federal brass. Kept 5 rounds on a railroad splice plate at 600 yards under field conditions in front of 5 witnesses. Plate was hanging horizontal with near perfect conditions.

 

[nralifer]

So you say with the newest tech you can improve the 308, With that same tech you can also improve the 3006. I see this is a possibility with all cases. Just look At what some creed guys are claiming to get with 40 grains of powder, same or better than a 6.5-284.

Maybe they should post their stuff here. Surely would be interesting. Love to see it. Marry Christmas to all by the way. Nothing like getting tips to improve ammo performance for Christmas

 

[cohunt]

What is "better"?
Flatter trajectory? Use a lighter bullet
More energy? Use a heavier bullet
More speed? Use a longer barrel or some of the newer powders.
More energy at subsonic speeds? Use the heaviest bullet your twist will allow.
You can try a bullet with less engraving pressure/shorter bearing length to increase your speeds too--certain monos and cup/core bullets would fall under this area

But every cartridge has its limitations


Ive gotten a178 ahh up to 2950fps from a 21" 30-06.
I havent had time yet to fool with that bullet in the 308, but I will try it at some point.

Just remember that you'll need enough energy for the animal you're hunting AND you'll need enough speed for reliable expansion for the bullet your using.