How not, to use a 6.5 creedmoor

[Gcan]

He made a poor shot for 600y. Yes he hit the animal in a non ideal place. He however never panicked and started sending a ton of lead down range. It appears he was somewhat patient in placing his next few shots, albeit one was way off target. He recovered his wounded animal and went home with an elk. I grew up on a farm, and I will say I've had to persue a wounded deer or antelope on foor or by motorized vehicle several times due to a poot shot by me self or someone in the party. If you've never EVER made a poor shot on a game animal and all your kills were dead right there hammer of Thor lighting bolt bs or whatever you want to call it, flame on. Lets be real, ---- happens. He recovered the elk, didn't appear to have to persue it much, bottom line it was a mixed results hunt, successfully harvested animal, however poor killing methods. I personally sure as hell wouldn't have put it on public internet. I'm sure he learned some lessons that day, about shooting and what to share online.

I disagree. He was darn lucky that elk didn't scoot. That elk was trying to figure out what happened. It could have just as easily panicked and moved just a few more yards and those guys would have never seen that animal again, nor would they have posted that video. And that is why I think I'm so angry. That is likley not the only bad shot from another guy who thinks the 6.5 is the hammer of Thor. How many animals are being wounded by these people. I know you want to put the best face on this but there were 100 ways that could and should have gone wrong. IMO you are connecting a bunch of dots to make a case. The fact is the guy fell apart on his follow up shots. There is simply nothing and no case to be made for that guy except I wish there were a whole lot fewer of him out there.

 

[Gcan]

I've seen several cows SMOKED with a 300 WSM and 300 win with accubonds at norm range right where he hit that bull and nothing made it into the chest!
I've hit two cows my self with a 300 WBY and 168 Barnes right there inside 400 yards and it dropped them like I spined them only to have them get back up and when opening them up that shoulder hit never made it into the chest.

You are making the point I made earlier. Big fast mag bullets make hydrostatic shock that will often kill an animal with an otherwise non lethal hit. Given a marginal shot at 500 yards with the same POI - one from a 6.5 and one from a 300UM, 300 Weatherby or 338 anything you are probably several times more likley to harvest that animal with the bigger stick.

 

[whirlwindjml]

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Like that guy? Marginal shot with a 7mag close up to the neck. It lives and he kills the next year. Hydrostatic shock near a vital don't cut it. It aften causes adrenaline. It may or may not help but there is no replacing marksmanship with a bigger gun. Ive seen things happen like in the above video to people and thats why i say that. The smaller guns do have their ranges shorter vs a magnum absolutely. Everyone has to have knowledge of bullet performance at what velocity it can be used at and what velocity it cant. But even 3 inch hole in a deers neck dont always do it. I would never hand my kid my ultra mag and now think he hunt farther because now he sever the leg clear off. My 14 year old hit a clay pigeon at 200 yards well. So thats his range. If he has a rest he can do 300. So thats were hes limited for now. A magnum isnt the answer at all. If you cant confidently poke it in the organs ots to far no matter what ordinance your lobbing its way. Just an oppinion but it's also stated often in hunter education classes.

 

[bigngreen]

You are making the point I made earlier. Big fast mag bullets make hydrostatic shock that will often kill an animal with an otherwise non lethal hit. Given a marginal shot at 500 yards with the same POI - one from a 6.5 and one from a 300UM, 300 Weatherby or 338 anything you are probably several times more likley to harvest that animal with the bigger stick.

You missed the part where they didn't make it into the chest, every one of those elk require more shooting, the one I dropped came back to and was trying to get up when I got to her and dispatched her. One of the cows shot with a 300 WSM with 180 Accubonds was hit at 80 yards, she immediately ran to 600 ish then turned to look back when she caught a 140 Berger from my 270 WSM behind the shoulder and she pitched forward and dropped. I spent 3 days crawling around trying to kill a bull that a guy had high shoulder shot with a 300 RUM and the bullet just missed the center of the spine blowing the top of, I watched the guy drop him and while they were going up to him he got his feet back under him and they couldn't get another bullet in him, I put a 140 Berger from a 6.5 behind his shoulder at 500 yards and he was dead in 50 yards, nice 320 class bull. Not a single one of those elk died from the first shot in the shoulder that failed to get into the chest with 30 cal magnums and "premium hunting" bullets!!!

 

[betolatinlu]

Not true at all. It's where you hit them AND what you hit them with. I've shot 3 with a Creedmoor and I can personally tell you that a 140g accubond in the chest cavity at 200 yards was not enough to make a quick kill. It took out one lung and the back of another then ricocheted off a rib into back thru the liver into the guts. She dropped in 30 yards but she was still breathing and kicking when I got there 20 min later. I had to shoot her again. Under your theory the same shot with a .500 Nitro would make no difference.

Elk are tough, bring enough gun.

 

[betolatinlu]

Don't know the distance. Just know the caliber.

 

[betolatinlu]

Not true at all. It's where you hit them AND what you hit them with. I've shot 3 with a Creedmoor and I can personally tell you that a 140g accubond in the chest cavity at 200 yards was not enough to make a quick kill. It took out one lung and the back of another then ricocheted off a rib into back thru the liver into the guts. She dropped in 30 yards but she was still breathing and kicking when I got there 20 min later. I had to shoot her again. Under your theory the same shot with a .500 Nitro would make no difference.

Elk are tough, bring enough gun.

Actually if she went 30 yards she didn't get very far . Under MY theory , bad shot placement is bad shot placement regardless of caliber . That is my theory . I've had to track wounded deer in Utah that were shot with a .300 Winchester Mag. I guess that a smaller caliber placed in the right spot might've resulted in a shorter search .

 

[FIGJAM]

The honest truth is boys...if it was a 260 Rem it would have got the job done a lot quicker and a lot further away.

 

[TX Badger]

The title of the thread is "How not to use a 6.5 creed" so I focussed on that aspect.
-The skyline shot was ridiculous.
-The shooting was suspect, but I gave him a pass on the follow up shots because I can't see what he was dealing with. We can't see how he had to reposition. He may not have had solid position options as everything changed.
-A lot of this debate has hinged on where that first shot landed and its just not definitive. I saw it as high enough to get to the chest of it had penetrated. Sounds like bigngreen has a lot more experience here. So maybe it would take more gun than I thought to make it through.

But I do know this as fact by running some simple numbers to illustrate my point.

Theoretical Creed load
Berger 140 vld launched at 2900 fps delivers 1329 ft. Lbs. At 600 yds

My 7 Rem mag
Berger 180 vld launched at 2900 fps delivers 1840 ft. Lbs. At 600 yds

1840-1329=511/1329=38%

On a less than ideal shot which everyone seems to agree can and will happen if you hunt enough, 38% more energy can help a lot. And that is not with an ultra mag or 338 or some unreasonably larger monster cartridge, just more legitimate elk round. Simply put, if you want to shoot 600 yds at an elk use a more suitable cartridge.

 

[bigngreen]

The energy won't make an noticable difference the SD of the bullet MAY but may not, you could have been in the exact same situation as this guy. A lot of guys don't even know that's happened though cause they loose the elk in the scope and just see elk butt in the trees and they can't find nothing that looks like a hit so they thing they missed. I know I've done this before shooting elk down on the fields where you see everything, changed my views a LOT.

 

[sp6x6]

Hmm Bigngreen I agree with you on most,but energy and a large projectile do make a difference.Shot a 340 for 30+ and a 338 NM last ten w/300.Its basically to much for normal hunting,the 300 is devistating on large game

 

[betolatinlu]

Hmm Bigngreen I agree with you on most,but energy and a large projectile do make a difference.Shot a 340 for 30+ and a 338 NM last ten w/300.Its basically to much for normal hunting,the 300 is devistating on large gameView attachment 127844

That is one hell of an exit wound !!!

 

[Barrelnut]

Theoretical Creed load
Berger 140 vld launched at 2900 fps delivers 1329 ft. Lbs. At 600 yds

Just from the rifle he was using, I guess he was more than likely using factory ammo. I would guess that ammo was Hornady Precision Hunter Hunter for the 6.5 CM. Hornady stated velocity for that ammo is only 2700 FPS.
Giving him 6000 ft elevation and a 143 ELD-X he probably had (in the neighborhood) of 2004 FPS velocity and 1248 Ft-lbs. A 30-30 150 Gr bullet has about 1375 at 100 yards.

I think if he had hit the sweet spot, it would have worked.

 

[Gcan]

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Like that guy? Marginal shot with a 7mag close up to the neck. It lives and he kills the next year. Hydrostatic shock near a vital don't cut it. It aften causes adrenaline. It may or may not help but there is no replacing marksmanship with a bigger gun. Ive seen things happen like in the above video to people and thats why i say that. The smaller guns do have their ranges shorter vs a magnum absolutely. Everyone has to have knowledge of bullet performance at what velocity it can be used at and what velocity it cant. But even 3 inch hole in a deers neck dont always do it. I would never hand my kid my ultra mag and now think he hunt farther because now he sever the leg clear off. My 14 year old hit a clay pigeon at 200 yards well. So thats his range. If he has a rest he can do 300. So thats were hes limited for now. A magnum isnt the answer at all. If you cant confidently poke it in the organs ots to far no matter what ordinance your lobbing its way. Just an oppinion but it's also stated often in hunter education classes.

Still missing the point. First, hydro shock requires some amount of resistance in tissue for the bullet to empart its energy. That's why we don't hunt with FMJs. I'm certain I too can find many examples of low neck shots, grazing hind quarter shots from big guns that did not stop animals. Ive seen deer run from low gut shots. My buddy Rodney shot deer off hand with his 7mm mag with a 140 grainer. The deer took a step as he fired and what should have been a heart shot hit the deer very low in the gut behind the diaphram. The deer ran out of the field and dropped dead. Nothing vital was hit. When we gutted that deer the entired stomach cavity was soup. There were no pieces of intact intestines. That is hydrostaic shock. All it needs is enough power, speed and controlled expansion to empart all of its several thousand foot pounds of energy into the animal. Given proper bullet selection for the distance and animal, a bigger mag bullet is more likley to kill an animal or drop it than a smaller one with the same marginal shot. If that doesn't compute then a couple chapters on physics is in order. Read hydraulic properties or why liquids cannot be compressed. Discover why Hydrostatic shock in a hind-quarter can actually rupture brain tissue.

Perhaps I should have added that when an animal drops at the shot, if you can see it shoot it again. I said that animals that drop often get back up. But what do you think drops them? Shock drops them. I never said every shot would be fatal. I did however say that very often, and I have seen this too many times to count, an animal with a mortal hit that does fall will often stay down. The longer they stay down without being disturbed the sicker they get and the less likely they will ever get back up. But —-t happens. There are no hard fast rules. Here's the choice. You are going to get punched in the face. But you can choose a light-weight or a heavy-weight. No body say, "I want the 220lb guy to hit me."

A low neck shot with a non-expanding bullet is simply going to pass thru so the deer example proves nothing. I hit a doe in the lower neck in the 70s with a 300WM at 60 yards. I was shooting 150 Rem soft points. Terrible bullets. Better suited to Varmints, but devastating on deer in the woods of the North East where 100 yards is a long shot. The hit was probably fatal (eventually) but that deer would have gone a long long way if I was shooting 180 Partitions. Instead the bullet expanded on impact and took out all the tissue from the bottom of the neck to the bottom of the spine like I'd used a chainsaw. The deer dropped instantly from the shock. In my humble opinion you are conflating bad shots with the wrong bullet and caliber to make a case that small caliber bullets and large caliber bullets are the same. On the other hand, in Newfoundland I watched my partner shoot a bull moose standing in a bog 4 times with an 06 at 75 to 100 yards using 150 grain softs. He broke the shoulder 4 times but every bullet failed to penetrate after disintergrating in the shoulder. After he emptied his gun he used my 300wm with 180 Partitions to put the moose down. The first and only partition entered in the same shoulder, passed through the chest cavity, gellied the front of both lungs, then broke the far shoulder before stopping in the hide and dropping the animal in its tracks. (Never drop a moose in 3' of water) So see, we all have stories to prove our point. Another thing you might consider is a lot of famous folk have written on this subject. There are countless admonitions about using enough gun or more gun always being better than less gun or on choosing the right bullet for the animal, expected distance and conditions. Know what I have never seen? An article titled "Less is More" or "Always use the lightest gun you can carry."

There are very few bullets that will do their job from 100 to 1000 yards. There is a reason in Africa we carry solids and softs. Lastly, I hope we can all agree that you are far more likley to find the right bullet in 30 cal from 100 to 230 grains than you are in a 6.5 from 80 to 150 grains.
If you are hunting elk with anything less than a 180@2700 min you should not be. For years people moaned about a 308 being adequate for elk. Id take a 308 with a 180 at 200 before a 6.5 with a 150 at 200 any day.

I thought I was pretty clear.