How not, to use a 6.5 creedmoor

[Gcan]

I agree but again, 200 yards is not 600

 

[whirlwindjml]

Still missing the point. First, hydro shock requires some amount of resistance in tissue for the bullet to empart its energy. That's why we don't hunt with FMJs. I'm certain I too can find many examples of low neck shots, grazing hind quarter shots from big guns that did not stop animals. Ive seen deer run from low gut shots. My buddy Rodney shot deer off hand with his 7mm mag with a 140 grainer. The deer took a step as he fired and what should have been a heart shot hit the deer very low in the gut behind the diaphram. The deer ran out of the field and dropped dead. Nothing vital was hit. When we gutted that deer the entired stomach cavity was soup. There were no pieces of intact intestines. That is hydrostaic shock. All it needs is enough power, speed and controlled expansion to empart all of its several thousand foot pounds of energy into the animal. Given proper bullet selection for the distance and animal, a bigger mag bullet is more likley to kill an animal or drop it than a smaller one with the same marginal shot. If that doesn't compute then a couple chapters on physics is in order. Read hydraulic properties or why liquids cannot be compressed. Discover why Hydrostatic shock in a hind-quarter can actually rupture brain tissue.

Perhaps I should have added that when an animal drops at the shot, if you can see it shoot it again. I said that animals that drop often get back up. But what do you think drops them? Shock drops them. I never said every shot would be fatal. I did however say that very often, and I have seen this too many times to count, an animal with a mortal hit that does fall will often stay down. The longer they stay down without being disturbed the sicker they get and the less likely they will ever get back up. But —-t happens. There are no hard fast rules. Here's the choice. You are going to get punched in the face. But you can choose a light-weight or a heavy-weight. No body say, "I want the 220lb guy to hit me."

A low neck shot with a non-expanding bullet is simply going to pass thru so the deer example proves nothing. I hit a doe in the lower neck in the 70s with a 300WM at 60 yards. I was shooting 150 Rem soft points. Terrible bullets. Better suited to Varmints, but devastating on deer in the woods of the North East where 100 yards is a long shot. The hit was probably fatal (eventually) but that deer would have gone a long long way if I was shooting 180 Partitions. Instead the bullet expanded on impact and took out all the tissue from the bottom of the neck to the bottom of the spine like I'd used a chainsaw. The deer dropped instantly from the shock. In my humble opinion you are conflating bad shots with the wrong bullet and caliber to make a case that small caliber bullets and large caliber bullets are the same. On the other hand, in Newfoundland I watched my partner shoot a bull moose standing in a bog 4 times with an 06 at 75 to 100 yards using 150 grain softs. He broke the shoulder 4 times but every bullet failed to penetrate after disintergrating in the shoulder. After he emptied his gun he used my 300wm with 180 Partitions to put the moose down. The first and only partition entered in the same shoulder, passed through the chest cavity, gellied the front of both lungs, then broke the far shoulder before stopping in the hide and dropping the animal in its tracks. (Never drop a moose in 3' of water) So see, we all have stories to prove our point. Another thing you might consider is a lot of famous folk have written on this subject. There are countless admonitions about using enough gun or more gun always being better than less gun or on choosing the right bullet for the animal, expected distance and conditions. Know what I have never seen? An article titled "Less is More" or "Always use the lightest gun you can carry."

There are very few bullets that will do their job from 100 to 1000 yards. There is a reason in Africa we carry solids and softs. Lastly, I hope we can all agree that you are far more likley to find the right bullet in 30 cal from 100 to 230 grains than you are in a 6.5 from 80 to 150 grains.
If you are hunting elk with anything less than a 180@2700 min you should not be. For years people moaned about a 308 being adequate for elk. Id take a 308 with a 180 at 200 before a 6.5 with a 150 at 200 any day.

I thought I was pretty clear.

The neck shot obviously opened up...its a big hole not a 7mm hole. And i dont push that everyone should be using a smaller rifle. I quite well understand terminal ballistics. My point is that "hydrostatic shock" shouldnt be replacing practice and well placed shots. And there are plenty that kill quickly with smaller bullets at appropriate ranges. The magnum will mame and wound also.
I know because i hunt with all kinds of bullet combos and hunters with their bullet combos. Id never knock sombody for using their .270 of they are proficient with it.

I adore my .300 ultras and lapuas and use them if there is distance. But ive also personal seen soupy wound channels fron an eldx at only 143 grains. Countless actually over the last few years and also

This has been beat to death. I try to make sure its going in the vitals before i shoot. I had to lower my several times last year.

 

[bigngreen]

Hmm Bigngreen I agree with you on most,but energy and a large projectile do make a difference.Shot a 340 for 30+ and a 338 NM last ten w/300.Its basically to much for normal hunting,the 300 is devistating on large gameView attachment 127844

Like that, the first animal I tried the 300 Berger on was an antelope at 300 yards with a 338 RUM, held back to make dang sure I missed the shoulder. Fired and it took of running, whole herd disappeared, I was stunned, I looked at the rifle, looked at my buddy and we were both wondering what the heck. Walked up there and he ran maybe 100 yards, I could see through him, chunks of gore were all up the trail. Pulled everything out of his chest except the heart, pulled the liver out also.
I've never had an antelope run away from a 22-250 and a 60 gr Berger though.

 

[NEMTHunter]

Thats where the term dead on his feet come's from.

 

[sp6x6]

That surprises me too have had friends take antelope to 1300 with them.Also surprise on barnes,shot those threw alders and killed game,packed them just for those shots.

 

[Gcan]

The neck shot obviously opened up...its a big hole not a 7mm hole. And i dont push that everyone should be using a smaller rifle. I quite well understand terminal ballistics. My point is that "hydrostatic shock" shouldnt be replacing practice and well placed shots. And there are plenty that kill quickly with smaller bullets at appropriate ranges. The magnum will mame and wound also.
I know because i hunt with all kinds of bullet combos and hunters with their bullet combos. Id never knock sombody for using their .270 of they are proficient with it.

I adore my .300 ultras and lapuas and use them if there is distance. But ive also personal seen soupy wound channels fron an eldx at only 143 grains. Countless actually over the last few years and also

This has been beat to death. I try to make sure its going in the vitals before i shoot. I had to lower my several times last year.

We agree. My point was we all make bad shots for a variety of reasons. Poor shooting skills are never acceptable. Whether a person is going to shoot 10 feet or 2000 yards they better have put a lot of lead on targets in a lot of conditions at any range they might consider shooting at an animal. However, even with all the practice (i shoot 100 Precision rounds a week minimum) the best of us, you, me and anyone whoes ever been on more than one hunt still hits unseen branches or suffers a gust, a step and bad dope. It's a shame more people don't think this stuff thru like you clearly do. When I hunted I also used .243s, 260s and the like for deer and hogs. I never took one into the field for large game, but I certainly could have done so with confidence. Best-
G

 

[Gcan]

I have a question for everyone. How many of you are using factory loads for LR hunting?

I don't hunt anymore but when I did I hand loaded everything for long range. Now long range then and now are much different. Back then Ballistic tables rarely went past 300 yards. Factory Rifles rarely shot factory ammo at 1 MOA. We used optical split image mil surplus range finders. We used mil dots. We did not have lasers. We did not have hand held weather stations. I thought I was hot stuff first time I shot a whitetail past 400 yards.
Factory ammo varied 50 fps or more. Bullet vertical stinging was a real problem. Hunting bullet BCs were .4 or less. What makes me curious is the shots in that video looked very much to me to have been box ammo. So I'm curious how you all feel about factory hunting ammo today and where each of you draws the red line. For me I would not consider shooting any game animal with box ammo much past 300 yards in all conditions. Cause ALL CONDITIONS is just what we all get when that booner steps out.
If I'm going to shoot at a 8" or 12" circle at 700 yards it's going to be with ammo I know will hold an actual 1 moa or less at whatever my max distances is.
I just don't know enough about real hunting with factory ammo today. I know we have great bullets. We have match ammo with match bullets but do we have sub moa factory hunting ammo at 700-1000 yards? Because if not then that would fit with my opinion of the cowboy in the video. He likely bought a box at the local shop. Most of the folks I know that can shoot 500 plus, all handload. And because of that most can also shoot.

Just curious where you all say "good" with factory ammo.

I suppose I am aware of high end custom OEM ammo. I'm referring to the stuff we buy at the local gun shops.

G

 

[Deleted member 48126]

@Gcan I use Federal game Kings. Pretty great accuracy out of my rifles with good performance.

 

[bigngreen]

There is excellent ammo out there, my daughter has zero trouble keep multiple factory Creedmore rounds in the kill zone on my ram target at 520 yards. It's honestly hard to justify reloading for her rifle. Nothing I've put through her gun at range shot over MOA, a couple ran sub 1/2 MOA.

 

[Gcan]

There is excellent ammo out there, my daughter has zero trouble keep multiple factory Creedmore rounds in the kill zone on my ram target at 520 yards. It's honestly hard to justify reloading for her rifle. Nothing I've put through her gun at range shot over MOA, a couple ran sub 1/2 MOA.

Thats amazing. Good to hear too.

 

[whirlwindjml]

There is excellent ammo out there, my daughter has zero trouble keep multiple factory Creedmore rounds in the kill zone on my ram target at 520 yards. It's honestly hard to justify reloading for her rifle. Nothing I've put through her gun at range shot over MOA, a couple ran sub 1/2 MOA.

My mileadge has been the same. Cheesy savage axis xp11 and hornady ammo and very consistant out to 650. Its actually ****ed a few people off. Intended to buy dies years ago but just recently started. Es and sd is a little more than i like but hasnt showed a problem since i dont drive them out too far yet. Funny you say 520 because i posted before this pic but these elk were both 1 shot at 515. Moa or less has been the standard. We practice on clay pigeons and when i cant hit them any more Consistently then i know my range is expiring.

 

[Barrelnut]

Must admit, I was shooting some Hornady 129 SST Superformance ammo this summer that was doing real well at 700 yards. It was basically hitting about 3/4 MOA fairly consistently. I did straighten some of it before shooting it cause I checked the runout and a few of them were pretty severe.

For hunting though, I would use handloads, just because I'm more confident in it.

 

[whirlwindjml]

For hunting though, I would use handloads, just because I'm more confident it

Amen...I have had 2 misfires on elk in the last 2 years....could be my fault with the sleet snow ect.... Now i get why navy seals in Nam dumped ammo in the rivers after a few missions.

I bought 5 boxes of the ammo to mount scope and break in and let kid s get used to it and collect brass..... But when it shot so well and it was so lite and handi i bought more boxes and kept saying "get dies next year"....
And the kids have to get differnt gun....

 

[jasonco]

I haven't hunted with boxed ammunition, since my second (7RM) big game rifle in 1989!