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How much Energy to kill an Elk
- Thread starter mmh
- Start date
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Energy is velocity squared time weight divided by 450240 = Ken Energy.
It does not take into account of bullet construction, expansion and shot placement.
You can have a super velocity X gr bullet that passes trough the critter with no expansion and have a wounded animal running around the mountains and the bullet flys on carrying its wasted energy to no man's land.
Or you can have a moderate velocity bullet, med weight, hitting the lungs and expanding to do massive damage to the lungs, and stop before it exits the animal, often stopping just under the skin on the far side of the animal, thus expanding its energy totally in the animal.
Or you can have a bullet that expands, destroying the lungs, passing through the animal leaving a large exit wound to assist the animal in bleeding out. Yet some of the energy is wasted because this bullet too, flys off with wasted un-used energy.
In short, in my opinion, I don't pay attention to energy numbers, I want a bullet to expand doing the most damage to the heart and lung are, its nice it if exits leaving a exit wound but I wont loose any sleep if the bullet destroys the heart and lungs and doesn't exit. As long as it penetrates enough to destroy the vitals.
The bullet also needs to have enough mass to blow through a shoulder and still destroy the heart lung area.
Shot placement is the most critical.
Think of energy as heat. I fire in a stove on a cold winter day puts out energy (heat) and its well used while you set in front of in drinking your morning coffee. That same fire would be useless setting out in an open field. Yes it still had energy (heat) but its not doing you any good.
So as said, my opinion is to ignore energy tables, find a bullet and drive it fast enough that you get good expansion and penetration need to do max damage to vitals and then put that bullet into the vitals.
Most people say you need between 1800-2000 ft lbs of KE for elk. Last year I shot this cow at 342 yards with a 270 using 150 Hor. IBs. it should have developed about 1500 lbs at that range. I don't know, I don't care. It destroyed the lungs, and exited. No blood trail because all it did was roll down the hill into the creek. Yet according to some I didn't have near the KE I needed.
Maybe, maybe not, but I have the elk (had, I ate it)
It does not take into account of bullet construction, expansion and shot placement.
You can have a super velocity X gr bullet that passes trough the critter with no expansion and have a wounded animal running around the mountains and the bullet flys on carrying its wasted energy to no man's land.
Or you can have a moderate velocity bullet, med weight, hitting the lungs and expanding to do massive damage to the lungs, and stop before it exits the animal, often stopping just under the skin on the far side of the animal, thus expanding its energy totally in the animal.
Or you can have a bullet that expands, destroying the lungs, passing through the animal leaving a large exit wound to assist the animal in bleeding out. Yet some of the energy is wasted because this bullet too, flys off with wasted un-used energy.
In short, in my opinion, I don't pay attention to energy numbers, I want a bullet to expand doing the most damage to the heart and lung are, its nice it if exits leaving a exit wound but I wont loose any sleep if the bullet destroys the heart and lungs and doesn't exit. As long as it penetrates enough to destroy the vitals.
The bullet also needs to have enough mass to blow through a shoulder and still destroy the heart lung area.
Shot placement is the most critical.
Think of energy as heat. I fire in a stove on a cold winter day puts out energy (heat) and its well used while you set in front of in drinking your morning coffee. That same fire would be useless setting out in an open field. Yes it still had energy (heat) but its not doing you any good.
So as said, my opinion is to ignore energy tables, find a bullet and drive it fast enough that you get good expansion and penetration need to do max damage to vitals and then put that bullet into the vitals.
Most people say you need between 1800-2000 ft lbs of KE for elk. Last year I shot this cow at 342 yards with a 270 using 150 Hor. IBs. it should have developed about 1500 lbs at that range. I don't know, I don't care. It destroyed the lungs, and exited. No blood trail because all it did was roll down the hill into the creek. Yet according to some I didn't have near the KE I needed.
Maybe, maybe not, but I have the elk (had, I ate it)
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I like to use 1000 to 1500 ft/lbs of energy as a minimum.
That doesn't mean you cant kill a Elk with less, but with a well performing bullet that seems to
be enough for clean one shot kills.
I look at the ballistic tables to determine where the distance of a particular cartridge drops below these numbers and set the usable limit based on this energy level.
Sectional density does have an effect (Bigger is better) but bid bullets are not a must as long as you have bullet performance and energy.
There is a chart called the "Taylor Knock Out Values" that Is very conservative and recommends 2000 ft/lbs for elk. but they assume the worst and want as much energy as possible.
J E CUSTOM
That doesn't mean you cant kill a Elk with less, but with a well performing bullet that seems to
be enough for clean one shot kills.
I look at the ballistic tables to determine where the distance of a particular cartridge drops below these numbers and set the usable limit based on this energy level.
Sectional density does have an effect (Bigger is better) but bid bullets are not a must as long as you have bullet performance and energy.
There is a chart called the "Taylor Knock Out Values" that Is very conservative and recommends 2000 ft/lbs for elk. but they assume the worst and want as much energy as possible.
J E CUSTOM
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
How much energy to kill an elk? Hmmmmmmm
I'm thinkin it takes about all the energy a fella can muster. I've taken some long hikes in some very steep places. I've also strolled leisurely along some ancient logging roads. I've also snuggled on the ground for long, long periods of time, for days even.
However, somewhere along the line each hunt took all the energy I could muster.
Never did worry about the capability of the rifle or bullet.
I agree with kraigwy. Only I shoot 140s.
Oh, and during an unforgettable experience, my son "mistakenly" put one down )DRT( with a 69 gr 223 bullet leaving the barrel at 2600. Not a good day, but memorable.
I'm thinkin it takes about all the energy a fella can muster. I've taken some long hikes in some very steep places. I've also strolled leisurely along some ancient logging roads. I've also snuggled on the ground for long, long periods of time, for days even.
However, somewhere along the line each hunt took all the energy I could muster.
Never did worry about the capability of the rifle or bullet.
I agree with kraigwy. Only I shoot 140s.
Oh, and during an unforgettable experience, my son "mistakenly" put one down )DRT( with a 69 gr 223 bullet leaving the barrel at 2600. Not a good day, but memorable.
i found this site to be an excellent resource for ballistics and hunting information. They expand upon the BC's, interior expansion variations for several popular rounds. A great resource. Extensive Field-Tested Rifle & Cartridge Research - BallisticStudies.com
kcebcj
Well-Known Member
I agree with JE Custom about the 1000-1500 numbers. 1000 for deer and 1500 for elk. Another thing important is the bullets fps number for proper expansion to produce enough energy. I shoot Berger bullets and they recommend 1800fps minimum. Once I work up a load and prove the velocity I look at the ballistic numbers in QuickLoad and see where the load poops out either the 1500 ft lbs or the 1800 fps and that becomes the max for that load.
The real answer to how much energy is probably unknown as each animal is different as is each shot but in my thinking the bullets minimum velocity and 1000-1500 ft lbs of energy is a good minimum to follow.
These seem like good guidelines. I agree about minimum velocity for proper expansion which only the bullet manufacturer can supply. I understand that there is a complicated issue with many factors. Expansion is important, but a larger diameter bullet has to expand far less than a smaller one. For example, a 6mm bullet has to expand 40% to reach a .338 diameter.
+1!
I agree with what has been said, and also use a ballpark of 1500 ft*lbs as a minimum energy for elk.
Although, I have never had the opportunity to test 1500 ft*lbs. My furthest shot on an elk still carried over 1850 ft*lbs at 630 yards with a barnes .338 210 gr TTSX. In that scenario I hit the front shoulder hard (elk was quartering towards me) and the bullet destroyed the lungs and heart, and exited the rear ribcage. Plenty of energy for a quick kill in an extreme shooting angle on a very large bodied bull.
So to be clear, my 1500 minimum energy is just my own personal untested theory. As I approach longer shots with lower velocities much closer to the 1500 ft*lb energy mark, I would begin to limit my shots to perfect broadside non-shoulder shots. I am definitely a believer in having plenty of energy for the job at hand, especially when it comes to elk.
Although, I have never had the opportunity to test 1500 ft*lbs. My furthest shot on an elk still carried over 1850 ft*lbs at 630 yards with a barnes .338 210 gr TTSX. In that scenario I hit the front shoulder hard (elk was quartering towards me) and the bullet destroyed the lungs and heart, and exited the rear ribcage. Plenty of energy for a quick kill in an extreme shooting angle on a very large bodied bull.
So to be clear, my 1500 minimum energy is just my own personal untested theory. As I approach longer shots with lower velocities much closer to the 1500 ft*lb energy mark, I would begin to limit my shots to perfect broadside non-shoulder shots. I am definitely a believer in having plenty of energy for the job at hand, especially when it comes to elk.
My cousin just called me, he is hunting elk up in nw NM. He hit one at 219 yards with 180gr .30-06 right at dark yesterday, the bull fell down, then got back up and walked away, they searched today for 8 hours and could not find a blood trail. He is on the way home broken hearted.
Wile E Coyote
Well-Known Member
Might be the best answer yet because it's 'outside the box.' The only thing I could add to it is, what about all the energy spent after the kill to get the it out of the woods,
Pete
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
Probably creased him high. Been there done that. Once my own giant bull and another my buddy's giant bull. Not fun. Not a lack of energy. Just a bad hit.
Steve
Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)
Well-Known Member
Some people take for granted how hardy animals are. I personally would prefer more energy downrange than less for elk, but that being said... A well placed shot with a bullet for the job doesn't require a tremendous amount of energy to get the job done. I think the rule of thumb that 1500 is a good number to shoot for, but even then, sometimes the gods are not smiling down on you. I saw a buck hit hard in the vitals jump 6 feet off the ground and run over 100 yards into cover. When we opened him up, the bullet pieced his heart and one lung was almost non existent. We were both literally stunned. That deer shouldn't have been able to go 10 yards let alone 100.
You just never know. Sorry for your cousin. Happened just once to me... And I still remember it like it was yesterday. A good hunt should wash the bad taste of this one away somewhat... but I bet he doesn't forget it.
TimeOnTarget
Well-Known Member
I recall a giant whitetail hunt from when i was about 14yrs old that ended similar to this. I had sat down and was leaned against a giant cottonwood tree which I fell asleep against. When i awoke there was a giant buck standing about 70yds from me feeding perfectly broadside. I pulled up my browning BLR in .308 firing 150grn winchester power points and fired. The buck took off on a dead, wobbly kneed run for about 300yds. When I got to him i found i had hit him right in the heart and it was split into 2 separate pieces. My grandpa was an excellent marksman, When these instances happened after he shot, he would always say "he's dead, he just doesnt know it yet" as he was always that confident in his shot. It's unreal what some of these critters are capable of when they are essentially dead on their feet.
More energy is always better. No doubt about it. But for many folks recoil becomes an issue. Personally I would rather have a rifle of moderate recoil that i have confidence in and can shoot with repeatability vs a magnum rifle with a recoil that i cannot control.
I've played the magnum rifle game before, and yes I've killed plenty of animals with them but i no longer own a single one of them. 280AI is now my most potent caliber.
