How much Energy to kill an Elk

[kcebcj]

Some people take for granted how hardy animals are. I personally would prefer more energy downrange than less for elk, but that being said... A well placed shot with a bullet for the job doesn't require a tremendous amount of energy to get the job done. I think the rule of thumb that 1500 is a good number to shoot for, but even then, sometimes the gods are not smiling down on you. I saw a buck hit hard in the vitals jump 6 feet off the ground and run over 100 yards into cover. When we opened him up, the bullet pieced his heart and one lung was almost non existent. We were both literally stunned. That deer shouldn't have been able to go 10 yards let alone 100.

I think all of us that have taken a lot of game have witnessed what you say above. Have seen bucks jump straight in the air and then go 200 yards like they were never hit...heart totally destroyed. Then I have see bucks hit really bad and they go down like a ton of rocks dead right there...go figure.

So I have conclude....have a good bullet and accurate rifle don't shoot beyond your skill level or the bullets minimum performance point, put the bullet where it belongs and whatever happens deal with it as it comes.

 

[jonthomps]

So long as the bullet is put in a vital area 1500ft/lbs is fine. That being said, if you don't mind the recoil of a larger caliber (or care about carrying a heavier rifle around) I prefer a high shoulder shot. I say larger caliber because you need a heavier bullet to plow through bone. I've used this shot placement on a couple elk at intermediate distances w/ a 338LM 300gr SMK combo and they drop where they stand. We're talking about a lot more than 1500ft/lbs of energy though!

 

[SansSouci]

We might want to consider biology and parts necessary to sustain life. Everything that lives dies due to cessation of brain activity. Stop oxygenated blood flow to an animal's brain, and it will die. The crucial part is stopping it sooner as opposed to anything else. Hence, a heart shot will kill an elk before it can go too far. Lung shots will kill quickly as well. It's not what destroys these essential parts that matters. What matters is that they're destroyed. Hence, a hunter who can accurately shoot a .270 Win will kill any elk just as dead were it hit with a .375 H&H Mag.

I'm good with any big game cartridges hunters want to use. But cartridges cannot compensate for for bad shooting. Bullets have to go where they need to do in order to hasten death.

About a month ago, my guide told me that he wanted me to take a shoulder shot. I know why. He wanted a bull to drop and become immobilized for a death shot. My bull wasn't cooperating. His front legs were behind trees. So I killed him with a heart shot. I was using a 7MM Rem Mag with 160 Partitions for a through-and-through shot. That bull went well better than 900lbs and scored better than 370. He was huge. He was 130 yards from me when I killed him. There is no doubt in my mind that most any cartridge would have reduced his blood pressure to zero.

My point is cartridge isn't as important has hunting and shooting skills.

I have a friend who has hunted all over North America. He has about 140 animals in his trophy room including an Alaskan griz. He killed most with a .300 Wby Mag until recoil became an issue, then he went with a .270 Wby Mag. He told me many years ago that when he saw a big game animal far in the distance, his first thought was closing distance. He'd rather shoot at a hundred yards than 500 yards even though his .300 Why would easily exceed that distance.

Years and years ago when the 7MM was the 7x57 and the .300 was the .300 Savage, hunters knew the importance of assuring bullets went where they needed to go. Above our northern border, our Canadian brethren were killing everything including griz with surplus .303 British rifles. Probably none of the rifles our hunting forefathers used to kill everything would break 1500 FP.

If hunters want to kill elk at 500 and better yards, I'm good as long as they're certain that they can humanely kill animals. I know my limitations, and they stop with 7MM Rem Mag recoil, a cartridge that was designed to be a long range elk rifle. But like my friend and my guide, I'd rather close distance to increase probability that my bullet will immediately stop oxygenated blood flow to an animal's brain. That way whatever game I'm shooting will die sooner as opposed to anything else.

I cannot begin to recall hunters who have fired big rifles from benches only to come to grips with reality that bigs guns = big recoil. Big recoil = flinching. Flinching screws up confidence. Confidence is essential for good shooting. Good shooting is nonnegotiable when it comes to killing big game.

If I'm able to draw another tag for an excellent area, I think I'll take my .270 Win. I do have preference for 22" barreled rifles that are light, fast-handling, and don't cause CTE when shooting them from benches. But that's just me. Mileage will vary.

 

[KYHILLJACK]

Sans you just read from my book. My deer rifle has always been a 300 Savage model 99 using 180 gr rounds. My elk rifle is a model 70, 7mm mag using 160 gr partitions.
Cut my teeth on a great uncle's model 99, open sights. Still have it and my grandfathers' 99 and another 99 bought at auction. Dad refers to them as 'ole meat in the pot'.

 

[SansSouci]

KYHILLJACK,

Yes sir, I have read from your book. And I agree with every word you wrote.


Take care,

SS

 

[SansSouci]

I've recently found this site. I do like it. There is a lot of excellent advice provided by very knowledgeable shooters and hunters. For that, I'm grateful.

I might have missed the following, as I am sure it has been reviewed. But in case it has been overlooked, I'll try my best to convey my thoughts.

I love accurate rifles as much as anyone. To my way of looking at hunting, reliability and accuracy are coequal. One without the other leaves hunting more to hope than knowledge.

While I am not much a target shooter, I do admire guys who can shoot accurately to a thousand yards and beyond. I love watching TV episodes of our military's snipers (British and Canadian snipers are damned talented as well.) who possess talent to shoot well beyond a mile. Maybe one day I'll buy a long range target rifle and test my skill.

Moving from bench shooting to the field is a lot more involved than merely changing shooting locations. I have hunted the Rocky Mountains for decades. I have hiked the San Gabriel Mountains of Angeles National Forest. The San Gabriel Mountains are the most rugged mountains I have ever experienced. While they are only about 10 miles wide and 70 miles long, that damned range is just about vertical. Peaks are mostly straight up and straight down. I have fished the Eastern Sierra extensively. The Eastern Sierra is more similar to the Rockies, maybe slightly more rugged. Tens of thousands of years ago if not long before that, they were pushed out of the Earth in a massive volcanic eruption. A huge bolder from that eruption was found in Nebraska. There is one of two of North America's super volcanos in the Mammoth Lakes region. I hope you guys can picture in your minds' eyes how rugged the Sierra Nevada Mountains are.

Of course, this is going somewhere.

Theory of long range hunting will meet reality when hunting rugged mountains. There is no doubt in my mind that an accomplished rifleman can shoot a buck at a 1000 yards. The real question is whether it would be wise to do.

About 12 years ago, the former game warden of the San Gabriels asked me to buy a bear tag a kill a bear behind Mount Baldy, which is approx 12,000' elevation. At that time, he was experiencing problems with aggressive black bears. I flatly told him that there was no way in hell I was going to do it. He asked why. I told him that were I dumb enough to shoot a black bear high in the San Gabriels (CA has the largest black bears in the lower 48 because they do not hibernate but for maybe a couple months due to warm climate, and they have endless supplies of food.), it would take a week of miserably hard work to get it out.

Canyons of the the San Gabriels are deep and steep. Herein lies where I'm going. It is one thing to make a 1000 yard shot on a buck. It is another thing entirely to get it out, especially were it to roll down a very steep canyon.

When long range hunters kill game at great distances, do they consider how they are going to get their game out? DO they first come up with realistic plans of retrieving dead animals?

The bull I shot just over a month ago went better than 900 pounds. As it was, it took four guides to pack its quarters, back straps, cape, and antlers about a half mile to the nearest road. We didn't get back to camp until midnight. Had I shot that beast across a canyon, we might still be packing him out. I know that my 7MM Rem Mag will accurately shoot a whole lot father than I'm capable. But because it will doesn't mean I will.

Where does long range hunting meet reality?

BYW, I have made a couple very long range shots on mule deer and antelope, one with a 7MM Rem Mag & one with a .270 Win. It both cases, I knew I was going to be able to recover them with reasonable effort. But were I to see a B&C mule deer in an area where I knew getting him out would be futile, I'd hope to see him another day when I had advantage.

As I have acquired wisdom that for some unknown reason is not innate, I have come to appreciate careful analyses of complexities of what I call ethical hunting. BTW, if a hunter is skilled to make a thousand yard killing shot on game, I would consider that ethical. Just because I can't do it does not make it unethical. My hunting objective is to get as close as possible to game I intend to shoot, take time to assure that my heart rate as slowed to allow for an accurate shot, and aim where a bullet will reduce an animal's blood pressure to zero upon my bullet's impact. That way, it won't live much longer than seconds.

As I reflect upon my hunting career and ponder seasons ahead of me (I pray), I have come to the conclusion that the .280 Rem would be tough to beat. But there are many cartridges that would work for me were I able to get within reasonable distance of animals I intend to shoot. I can easily see how a hunter could kill everything in North America with either a .308 Win or '06.

Please keep in mind that this is merely how I have it figured, and I know that math calculations will be a lot different for other hunters, especially those who possess the enviable skill of making 1000 yard shots on big game. And believe me, I do admire shooters who can hit targets a 1000 yards and beyond just like I admire the skill and physical prowess of a major league batter who can slam a 100 MPH fastball over a distant fence.

 

[lightflight]

When long range hunters kill game at great distances, do they consider how they are going to get their game out? DO they first come up with realistic plans of retrieving dead animals?

I agree completely. This is the first question at the top of my list.

I ran into a herd of hunters in D11 this weekend that didn't think about that. It was a shame to see.

 

[Jim See]

Well I have rolled plenty of game down mountains from long range shots and I for one like to hunt from the bottom and shoot up. My last 4 animals killed in CO were all up hill of me, and downhill with a load of meat is a big plus.

Really it makes no difference what the distance is, you can walk down into the "hell hole" and kill one at 50 feet, or you can shoot into the hell hole from the top. either way your pack is going to suck if you do dumb things.

 

[SansSouci]

Good Morning, Jim,

I do agree that an unwise shot is unwise regardless of distance. However, were we to graph unwise shots, I think we'd find a geometric pattern. That greater the distance, the more likely Murphy will be lurking.

When I was a young stud and more prone to relying upon physical ability, I would've yanked anything out of deep canyons. Orthopedic surgeries oriented me in another direction. Before I squeeze a trigger, I will assess whether I can get a critter out. That's one of the reasons guides tell hunters when to shoot. They already have it figured out. A good way to **** off a guide and have to walk back to camp is to shoot before a guide green lights you.

As I'v written, as long as a hunter has skill to make a shot at game that's in adjacent zip code, I'm good. My advice is that there are a lot of things to consider besides bullet hitting game.

Now that wisdom that I wish I had had when I was young has finally caught up with me, were I to see a B&C anything that would be impossible to retrieve, he's living. I'll hope that I can cross paths with him when I have advantage. And from my experience, those big critters don't grow to be big by being stupid. And that's why it's far more rewarding to kill an old-timer. Matching wits with wary big game is rewarding, even more so when you out-fox the fox.

The 10 year old huge bull I killed about 5 weeks ago was the most memorable kill of my life. He made us hunt him hard for a solid 90 minutes, over God only knows how many ridges, all the while knowing we were on his trail and with him trying to shake us. My guide told me that he was dogging us. I thought we were supposed to dog him! Endurance, my guide's intelligence, determination, and luck finally put us to 130 yards of the 370+, 900lb+ HUGE bull. To me, I would have much rather have hunted him than shot him across a canyon. But that's just me. I know that there is just as much skill involved making a 1000 yard shot.

 

[the blur]

If you read the deer hunting forums, the guys who hunt shotgun only areas; some of them complain the deer runs away never to be found after being hit with a 12 ga slug.

Then you read about the .243 guys, (myself included), and the deer is DRT.

 

[Jim See]

Sans, Well I never hunted with a guide before, I've elk hunted every year since 98 and think I have packed out enough elk meat on my back to know where and when I want to kill an elk. I don't go for the horns although I would love to harvest a 370" I usually go to fill the freezer. I will be leaving tonight for my annual elk trip and I don't consider shooting an elk at 1200 yards cheating. I think of it as a long walk to the meat counter, that I only have to do once every year. If I don't shoot one I will still have fun with guys I have been friends with for years.

At 44 years old, I have seen many a group of 20 something's hike for miles never to see elk. All the while I sit at camp glassing mountains to find where the elk are before I ever lace up my boots. Last year I hunted "my elk" for 6 days before I hiked up a valley and shot him at 968 yards. You followed an elk for 90 minutes. Either way we were both hunting. Seems the way we do it works pretty good, in the last 5 years we have been 70% on filling our tags on public ground, at ranges from 30-1202 yards.

 

[SansSouci]

Hi Jim,

I wish you absolute success on your upcoming elk hunt. I hope you kill a monster.

Like you, while luck is always welcomed, I'd rather have skill and knowledge.

I was hunting San Juan/Elk Ridge with Black Timber Outfitters. Many consider this to be the premier elk unit in the nation. It does take about 20 bonus points to have a decent chance of drawing a tag. Since it was essentially a once-in-a-lifetime hunt for trophy elk, a knowledgeable guide was logical.

I agree that as long as a hunter possesses skill to kill at long ranges, it is ethical. Just because I don't doesn't alter ethics.

Black Timer Outfitters: Black Timber Outfitters It has my 100% endorsement

Here's a photo of the huge bull that Travis Black put me on: .284" Going In, 1.00"+ Going Out

 

[RHC]

I've always went by one thing Mr. Boddington has said over and over again. Shoot the biggest gun that you are most comfortable and reasonably accurate with. For instance, while I could shoot an elk with a .338 RUM,l I am most accurate and comfortable with my .300 SAUM shooting 200 gr. partitions.

I've never believed in the the "1500 ft pound of energy" a lot of people tote. I've seen a lot of .22-250s and .243s shooting 80 gr. bullets drop elk at distances out to 500, 600 yards. Do I recommend it? No. But it will always boil down to shot placement and bullet construction for the intended distances in my opinion. YMMV.

 

[Jim See]

Well the quik story on my elk hunt. Spotted 2 rag horns at about 3600 yards with 60 minutes of shooting light, hot-footed it to with-in 863 yards. sent 2 bullets at one bull, result was 2 hits, and a dead 4x5.