How do we deal with some of the realities of our sport?

[WildRose]

Someone needs to let me know whether or not to post anymore videos. And whether to show bullet performance picts. I'm beginning to become confused.

The reason I'm on this site is to learn from others and have proof of their experience if they so decide to show it in video form. I want to see bullet affects. I thoroughly enjoy when Broz posts his hunting stories and poeple like him.

I personally don't care if it offends another or not. I'm actually sorta feed up with how people constantly have to change to make another happy.

If I don't like something on television, I turn the channel. If I don't like things on this forum, I'll change forums.

My two cents-- keep the stories, info, videos,pictures coming. I won't be offended.

Mossy none of us are moderators, the only people who can tell you with authority to do or not do anything here are Len and "Administrator".

You did fine.

I wouldn't post vid's of a coyote spinning trying to chew off the remnants of a shot off leg, or some horribly head shot animal with half it's face blown off still fighting for life because there is no benefit to anyone from such images even though we all do know they happen.

You used good judgement, just continue doing so and you'll be fine.

If Len or "Administrator" see a problem they'll let you know. There are some of us you can trust to give you good guidance but not even we have any authority.

 

[WildRose]

True, this site is different than FB and so I have different personal guidelines what I post and don't post on each. So, do you feel the benefit of posting a video like this more beneficial than harmful to the sport?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that it should not have been posted. I lean more to the idea that it's OK but I still have mixed emotions about it. When I first saw the miss the very first thing I thought was that the anti long rangers will have a field day with this. I know because I have had more than my share of encounters with them.

You and I and the rest of us know things don't always go right in long or short range. But there will be those who look at this and say "see, this is proof you can never be sure of making a clean kill at these ranges" and do their best to convince others of it. Should we just forget and ignore them and let them rant?

MR there have been a few threads and comments/postings on threads I felt similar over. I sometimes state my concerns and urge people to keep in mind the nature of the site and what is generally deemed acceptable here. If it continues I drop a line to Len by clicking the little red warning triangle in the top right of the post that concerns me. It will bring up a message box where you can tell him what has you concerned and he'll deal with it. He always sends a quick note back to give you guidance for the future or just a simple thank you.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Someone needs to let me know whether or not to post anymore videos. And whether to show bullet performance picts. I'm beginning to become confused.

The reason I'm on this site is to learn from others and have proof of their experience if they so decide to show it in video form. I want to see bullet affects. I thoroughly enjoy when Broz posts his hunting stories and poeple like him.

I personally don't care if it offends another or not. I'm actually sorta feed up with how people constantly have to change to make another happy.

If I don't like something on television, I turn the channel. If I don't like things on this forum, I'll change forums.

My two cents-- keep the stories, info, videos,pictures coming. I won't be offended.

You can post anything you wnt here as long as meets the guidelines Len has established.... which the video in question does as far as I know.

I started this thread mainly to keep this subject out of the thread in question so it is no longer detracted from. Also because I thinks it's a worthwhile subject to flesh out. It's something to get us to thinking about it.

I have enjoyed almost all videos posted on this site including the one in question and yours was also great so keep them coming.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

MR there have been a few threads and comments/postings on threads I felt similar over. I sometimes state my concerns and urge people to keep in mind the nature of the site and what is generally deemed acceptable here. If it continues I drop a line to Len by clicking the little red warning triangle in the top right of the post that concerns me. It will bring up a message box where you can tell him what has you concerned and he'll deal with it. He always sends a quick note back to give you guidance for the future or just a simple thank you.

I think the thread was well within Len's boundaries - no problem there.

We have any freedoms but it isn't always best to exercise those freedoms. I.e., I have the freedom to shoot a moose with a .223 using 53 gr VMax bullets if I want, if i have a tag. probably not a wise idea though.

Again, I'm not taking a "side" on this, just fleshing it out.

Is it possible that the exercise of our freedoms in some cases may harm our sport or is there more benefit in being open?

I noticed you have boundaries in what you would post and they seem good to me.

Some of our members would not post a video like the one in question and some would.

 

[WildRose]

I think the thread was well within Len's boundaries - no problem there.

We have any freedoms but it isn't always best to exercise those freedoms. I.e., I have the freedom to shoot a moose with a .223 using 53 gr VMax bullets if I want, if i have a tag. probably not a wise idea though.

Again, I'm not taking a "side" on this, just fleshing it out.

Is it possible that the exercise of our freedoms in some cases may harm our sport or is there more benefit in being open?

I noticed you have boundaries in what you would post and they seem good to me.

Some of our members would not post a video like the one in question and some would.

The inevitable result of freedom is that it will allow us to do thing that some people don't like. That is why democracy is the enemy of personal freedom since if it is not bounded by constitutional rules preventing same, the majority sooner or later finds way to vote away minority rights. We who enjoy the shooting sports are a minority of the population. Those of us who hunt are an even smaller minority. Those of us who can take game beyond 300yds with easy are a tiny fraction of that minority and those of us doing so at long range are a drop in the ocean.

Our best defense is to do all we can to grow all of the shooting sports through positive promotion including our little niche of long range hunters and shooters.

Some people who wander into this site will find way to be offended just because the subject matter involves the killing of game. Then we get to those who want to preach ethics and deride us simply because we kill game at ranges most people can't imagine. We can't change that.

I think as long as we each use what we believe to be good judgement and good taste and keep the nature of our threads, posts, pictures, videos etc we will continue to serve as a great resource for people who come here with an open mind and desire to learn. The rest we just can't do anything about anyhow.

 

[extreme]

EDITED BY LEN

This post is off topic.

 

[varmintH8R]

The reality of it is, hunters miss shots at all ranges from a few feet to as far as the eye can see.

.........

It doesn't matter if the range is 20yds or 2000 both will be out of the range of some shooters due to the shooter's skills and equipment.

WR - to me, your two sentences above capture the practical truth of hunting at any range, and the slippery slope of imposing our own capabilities (good or bad) on others.

I'm not sure I am articulating that correctly, but it really comes down to judgement. I know guys for sure who have lower odds of good hits on animals at 100yds than I do at 800. But - when anyone tries to impose "guidelines" on folks we are basically saying that our society broadly lacks good judgement. I personally reject that idea - whether it be ethical hunting choices, firearm ownership, responsible drinking, etc, etc, etc.

Things are going to go wrong, and we all need to correct them to the best of our abilities.

As to whether or not to share the videos, I think most are saying to use some sense in regards to time and place. If you are trying to bring some new folks into hunting, I wouldn't lead with a "controversial" video or story. I view the LRH site as a bit of a haven for the like-minded: even at 70K members (and much fewer really active) we are FAR from mainstream. If we self-edit here I think it equates to being self-doubting about the sport we are passionate about. Within limits, of course - if you take pleasure in making animals suffer I'll bet you'll get booted by the reaction you'll get here.

I like this site because the BS to real info ratio still tilts strongly toward real info. And while there are some contentious subjects I think we self police pretty well. Keep posting the good-faith truth of our sport - I learn as much from the bad as the good. And I've learned a lot!

 

[Derek M.]

I posted a video of my bear kill. I've never held anything back since I've been a member here about my advocacy of the shoulder shot. It has never failed to drop anything DRT, until this past Sept. I shared it because my past 100% success ended as evidenced by what you see in that video. I had to shoot the bear again. I could have never posted it but basically try my best to be objective with every thing I do. Posting the video shows that the shoulder shot is obviously not 100% every time for a quick kill.

I must admit when watching the moose video I was a bit surprised a confirmatory shot was done which I thought would run the risk of moving the moose out of town but it seemed to work. I have no problem with f/u shots needed at longer ranges. I expect it. When it turns out to not be necessary, that's great.

 

[MMERSS]

What if range was not a quantified equation with education? By this I am referring to measuring up the size of antlers and horns. I shot a 360 bull, I shot a 205 deer, etc. What if we presented hunting as a totality of capabilities equating to probability of a successful hunt and leaving "983 yards" out of the equation. Instead, 300RUM, 230 Target, 3171 MV, temp regression N/A, wind less than .5 MPH FV cross, wind condition confidence green, Air Density validated, range to target three times confirmed, COSX in solution, SD on, bubble level, shooter confirm parallax, spotter verify midrange mirage, shooter dry fire 22X on head and report MOA capability, validating range to target with corrected MOA against firing tables, programming firing solution, all earplugs on, shooter what is your MOA hold on head, confirming computer solution, solution validated, Elevation 19.5, Windage L1.25, shooter reconfirm dry fire on head. Verify wind, shooter "shoot when ready."

Surely this example is a team hunt and similar examples depending on team size to individual can be used. Those with the knowledge can reverse engineer the stats and estimate a range relatively close to actual.

Do we really need to post range in every instance? Range is only one factor of confidence and probability. Sometimes education is more about success than the size of horns. I'm guilty of this.


Mark, how do we deal with the reality of hunting? Perhaps by providing the pre-shot facts and not primarily focusing on size of the antlers.

 

[HuntFarther]

I think it is better to run off the fact of the truth. This is a educational site, and that is its intended purpose.

I think that a lot of people should be more courteous when posting some things about a persons thread. If you don't like how the out come is or what they thing find another to look at.

If it was me and he posted this and has 20 other hunts to share, if they are not perfect he probably will not have them up. He may even at best just show something similar to a short trailer of a bunch of impacts.

I my vote says show everything as the truth and people here can learn from it. If somebody is getting chapped to where they bleed, they should restraint themselves and find something else to do.

 

[FEENIX]

Like I said ...

Sometimes WE (the LRH community) are our worst enemy (no pun intended).

As long as human factors are involved, it will always complicate things.

 

[WildRose]

What if range was not a quantified equation with education? By this I am referring to measuring up the size of antlers and horns. I shot a 360 bull, I shot a 205 deer, etc. What if we presented hunting as a totality of capabilities equating to probability of a successful hunt and leaving "983 yards" out of the equation. Instead, 300RUM, 230 Target, 3171 MV, temp regression N/A, wind less than .5 MPH FV cross, wind condition confidence green, Air Density validated, range to target three times confirmed, COSX in solution, SD on, bubble level, shooter confirm parallax, spotter verify midrange mirage, shooter dry fire 22X on head and report MOA capability, validating range to target with corrected MOA against firing tables, programming firing solution, all earplugs on, shooter what is your MOA hold on head, confirming computer solution, solution validated, Elevation 19.5, Windage L1.25, shooter reconfirm dry fire on head. Verify wind, shooter "shoot when ready."

Surely this example is a team hunt and similar examples depending on team size to individual can be used. Those with the knowledge can reverse engineer the stats and estimate a range relatively close to actual.

Do we really need to post range in every instance? Range is only one factor of confidence and probability. Sometimes education is more about success than the size of horns. I'm guilty of this.


Mark, how do we deal with the reality of hunting? Perhaps by providing the pre-shot facts and not primarily focusing on size of the antlers.

Range is the most important factor of those which we can control.

As range increases all of the variables play greater roles in the likelihood of putting the shot in the right spot.

This is the "Range Shooting and Hunting Forum" so I find it a bit ridiculous to think we should leave it out of the discussion.

For those in love with the math your suggestion would make for interesting reading but for most of the world it would be as dry as reading recipe books.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Like I said ...

Must be the cold and the scoth...again.

Interesting thread (I've been reading along, all along)....

One always has to keep in mind that the people who ultimately decide on our fate aren't participants in our venue. That applies to most venues, not just this one.

 

[HARPERC]

Let's keep ethics out of this and focus on the thread title.

I have mixed emotions on the subject.

So, is it best to be selective in what we post or be totally open?

Please keep it civil guys... remember we are all on the same side.

Most of my response is in the original post.

I'm very proud of my children. I have no video of their conception or birth. Not ashamed of either, just a private person that realizes 1) Not every experience translates well to video, 2) Just as our rifles have transformed, so has the technology to record our hunts, 3) The younger people have been born, and raised with a camera in their face, and have a different view of privacy, and will post pictures of what they had for lunch, 4) Real time story telling is going to be a fact of life from here on out.

So how do we handle it?

I didn't know what the triangle was for until I read through this thread.

A trip to the woodshed is an old expression not used much any more. It combined the elements of time out, sort it out, deal with it, and privacy. What happened there could stay there, and it preserved a bit of each parties dignity.

Just because someone makes it public by posting a video, doesn't mean you're compelled to respond in public. There is a PM function here that might better serve to communicate disagreements better than, Administrative complaints, or picking teams on a thread.

As far as the question of how it affects hunters collectively, nothing makes everybody happy, and appeasement has never slowed the anti's.

I recently saw a really beautiful picture of a wolf trophy, groomed, positioned, and posed tastefully. It drew criticism as folks thought the hunter behind the animal made it look bigger.

Some things don't play well in public, some video's, and some criticisms are better for private airing. What may give the aniti's the most satisfaction, is being able to cause and see division in our ranks over how to deal with their antics.

Congratulations to the young man on his LR moose! I saw a moose take 5 from a 300 Winchester at 200 yards and wander around. It fell during the second reload.