Holdover shooting

[Hinterlandr]

They made me a program at the Bang Steel Shooting School. I was very surprised. They had a box on the printout called PBR (Point Blank Range. ) My 270 Weatherby Mag, shooting a 150 Grn. Accubond LR Bullet, with a G1 BC of 591 at 3000 fps , at 2800 feet in elevation has a PBR of 370 Yards. Thats a 12 inch square . In theory,( which I do not ever expect to test) I could be anywhere from 6 inches High at very close range, to 6 inches low at 370 yards. It seems completely unlikely to me, but it was in the ballistic program. What is clear is that all our rifles have some PBR , that allows us to place a shot at game, within a reasonable distance, before having to adjust the elevation dial. Could be 150 yards for some calibers , could be 250 yards for other calibers. All the usual variables depending, of course. It would be really nice to know what it is. For me and this load, at 300 yards has a 3.2 MOA drop, and would require a 3.2 MOA adjustment. If it was a big mule deer and it still I would adjust the turret, however if it was moving slow as I aimed, I would take the shot with some hold over, off my Bog Pod Tripod , If there were no time to adjust the turret. Interesting topic and Thread!!!

Thanks Sir

 

[Hinterlandr]

What scope are you using and what type of reticle? Take a look at the FFP and Dual Reticle scopes at https://shepherdscopes.com/ and if they're in your budget you might find one that will allow both hold over with precision and dialing capability. I've found their hold over points to be precise for my rifles and loads. I use them for practice with hold over out to 800 and 900 yards depending on where I can shoot at distance. As to how far you can use hold over, it really depends on your skill and how much you have shot at distance. Distance in field conditions can be deceptive and things can be closer or farther than they look.

I'm using a vortex with 3X to 9X and deadhold bdc. Primarily because it has a large field of view at low power and only weighs less than a pound as my rig is very light for mountain hunting

 

[Litehiker]

I use a G3 lighted reticle in my Bushnell Elite LRTS 4.5 - 18 x 44 hunting scope. It is a "small mag tree" reticle just right for long distance hunting. I hold based on the mils my Bushnell ARC 1 Mile rangefinder binoculars recommend (with a trued hold list inside my ocular scope cap). The scope cap list hold wins if it is much different than the rangefinder hold. Windage hold is my best guesstimation.

BUT... the best hold AND windage scope combo is the SIG/Sauer Sierra6 BDX scope and BDX rangefinder (monocular or binocular) and a Kestrel 5700 with Hornaday's 4DOF ballistic engine.
THAT combo is virtually unbeatable because (once you input the correct set up data) both the rangefinder and Kestrel 5700 will Bluetooth a firing solution to the scope and the proper hold AND windage dots will be illuminated. PLUS that scope line has a "LevelPlex" illuminated cant indicator at each end of the horizontal crosshair that will light if you are off level. Truly an amazing scope and system.

I have evened that some states do not permit the BDX system to be used for big game hunting, only the scope alone. Shame.

 

[7magcreedmoor]

My response is tailored toward hunting and not targets/steel!

It is dependent upon the velocities, BC's, and the zero range! We use a 300 yard zero on our hunting rifles, and easily "hold on hair" out to 400 yards on big game (deer and up). I'm certain the others using high BC bullets and higher velocities can easily stretch that a bit farther!

For hunting purposes, beyond 400 yards....we use the rangefinder and dial!

IMO, the only potential issue with our zero would be shooting small animals (fox, coyote, ect) at the peak of our trajectory (around 170ish yards). You just have to remember to hold a bit low for those shots! Most of the time a non-issue, but, I did manage to shoot over a Rockchuck with my 375 AI by not "thinking" The second shot corrected my mistake.....the Rockchuck was DRT! memtb

I would expect that with a 375, on a rockchuck DRT means "disintegrated right there..."

 

[marcos0901]

I've successfully used holdover this year on two whitetails @ 400yds. I put the yardage in my ballistic app and it called for 2MOA at that distance for 162gn ELD-M / 7mmRemMag. My Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25X56 is FFP and when the deer steps in the path (which is already flagged at 200, 300 & 400yds) I crank up the power and used appropriate pre-determined mark.
Pretty simple and effective setup. The path is only 508yds, the deer usually cross at the above cited yardages. For 0-250yds, it's hold low and then dead on at 300yds, at 400yds use 2MOA mark and 500yds use 4MOA.

Now if I'm hunting over a cutdown and activity is a bit more relaxed, I will dial.

I have only held over one or two times on deer. I usually dial I use a cabelas covenant 5 ffp on my built 308. I shoot out to about 600 a lot testing loads. Furthest shot this year was on a doe at 530 absolutely smoked her.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Fairly new to lrh. How far can i be successful with only holdover....non dialing scopes?
Thoughts?

I started out my long range journey 16 years ago with a Shepherd 3-10 scope on a 300 Weatherby. The Shepherds use circles in the reticle marked with the yardage. You buy the scope model that closest matches your cartridge and ballistics. I bought it from a guy who swore that was the best way to go for long range at the time. I shot a lot and really got good with it. The last circle was 1000 meters, so I shot at that distance often. As I learned some new tricks with that scope, I used it as a hybrid...hold over and dial the turret. I remember shooting clay pigeons in a dirt bank at 1450 yards and milk jugs at 1600 yards. Pretty crazy looking back with only 10x and an open reticle.

After a few years, I outgrew it as it just couldn't keep up with the gun and ammunition. I needed more precision, repeatability and of course magnification. I personally would never go back to a hold over scope, but I could see good potential from one that provided 1 MOA or even .5 MOA marks below the crosshair.

 

[7magcreedmoor]

I started out my long range journey 16 years ago with a Shepherd 3-10 scope on a 300 Weatherby. The Shepherds use circles in the reticle marked with the yardage. You buy the scope model that closest matches your cartridge and ballistics. I bought it from a guy who swore that was the best way to go for long range at the time. I shot a lot and really got good with it. The last circle was 1000 meters, so I shot at that distance often. As I learned some new tricks with that scope, I used it as a hybrid...hold over and dial the turret. I remember shooting clay pigeons in a dirt bank at 1450 yards and milk jugs at 1600 yards. Pretty crazy looking back with only 10x and an open reticle.

After a few years, I outgrew it as it just couldn't keep up with the gun and ammunition. I needed more precision, repeatability and of course magnification. I personally would never go back to a hold over scope, but I could see good potential from one that provided 1 MOA or even .5 MOA marks below the crosshair.

Same here. Once upon a time I had 4 Shepherds. They did teach me the value of FFP scopes, since they actually had both reticles. Then I got my first really good quality turret FFP and started dialing the range and never looked back.

 

[CGHunter]

View attachment 320168

That's on a Savage axis creedmoor with 143 eldx Cheap scope with better rings and rail.

I round 250 350 450 650 yards on the duplex.
Gun Killed 2 elk at 515 and others: 200, 250 yard 315 yard and some closer.

I never had to shoot an elk twice with it. It's fast handling. which is what you have to be in the north Idaho brush. It seems like most every elk situation here has been Seconds to range and fire before they're all boogied in to the deep stuff.

For my load I'll hold over out to 650. After that other factors need calculated for changing exterior ballistics hour by hour.

Just wondering what kind of FPS your getting out of your 6.5 creed ?

 

[whirlwindjml]

Just wondering what kind of FPS your getting out of your 6.5 creed ?

2727 I think on that one. 22 inch barrel.... At 515yards the bullets still go through large elk.

I have longer barrel 26" one that gets 2750

Load is 42.2 h4350 @2.818" with eldx143 very low sd

 

[greenejc]

I use a G3 lighted reticle in my Bushnell Elite LRTS 4.5 - 18 x 44 hunting scope. It is a "small mag tree" reticle just right for long distance hunting. I hold based on the mils my Bushnell ARC 1 Mile rangefinder binoculars recommend (with a trued hold list inside my ocular scope cap). The scope cap list hold wins if it is much different than the rangefinder hold. Windage hold is my best guesstimation.

BUT... the best hold AND windage scope combo is the SIG/Sauer Sierra6 BDX scope and BDX rangefinder (monocular or binocular) and a Kestrel 5700 with Hornaday's 4DOF ballistic engine.
THAT combo is virtually unbeatable because (once you input the correct set up data) both the rangefinder and Kestrel 5700 will Bluetooth a firing solution to the scope and the proper hold AND windage dots will be illuminated. PLUS that scope line has a "LevelPlex" illuminated cant indicator at each end of the horizontal crosshair that will light if you are off level. Truly an amazing scope and system.

I have evened that some states do not permit the BDX system to be used for big game hunting, only the scope alone. Shame.

How much does all that cost?

 

[Reelamin]

I do both and prefer hold over if I can. I have a few scopes with BDC, B and C, etc with a couple extra hold over marks and the thick/thin point on a standard duplex. I started years....hell decades ago using a modified MPBR of simply 4" high at 100. I used my Oehler chronograph to print me out a trajectory and taped it to my stock. I just used animal body measurements to estimate my holds and it worked great. My distance I could hold and shoot increased greatly after I got a laser rangefinder. I never dialed until maybe the last 10 years. Now I have a couple hunting scopes with MOA and Christmas tree reticles and I just hold and never need to dial. I still dial a couple of my older standard reticle or with a couple hash marks when the distance gets longer than 5-600 yards depending on the rifle. My last four rifles I would use for long range hunting I dial for two after 5-600yds (300 RUM and a 7STW 6.5-20 VX3 standard reticle) and hold for two out to 1-1100yds (28N VX6 3-18 TMOA, 338 EDGE VX5 3-15 Impact 29).

 

[Recon$$]

Maybe I have a different definition of hold over shooting. I'm thinking duplex reticle and guestimating 20".... not using a reticle. If that's the case, whatever 10 mils gets you... Dial/hold it makes no difference, I shot an entire PRS match out to 1100 holding over then.

 

[greenejc]

How much does all that cost?

And what do you do when it fails to work? I can hit a deer size target at 700 yards in the kill zone with the Shepherd scope using hold over and I can do it about 90% of the time without the new technology. Of course, I probably couldn't afford most of that stuff, and when I started out (in the '60's) we didn't have any of that stuff. The Shepherd and some other 'standard' scopes do pretty good for me and I can get a shot off with what I have with just a few seconds warning. With the right Shepherd, I can also dial elevation for precise shots. But I've shot my reticles enough to be able to use hold over and aim points in the reticle to hit center on steel out to 800 yards and beyond with any of my 30-06's, 35 Whelens and 300 Win Mags without having to take time to adjust my drop in the reticle. For me, that's good enough. I'd like to get one of the new Shepherds though. They have a new aim point for the 50 yard intervals and aim points out to around 1500 yards on their vertical stadia now.

 

[greenejc]

What caliber/cartridge are you shooting, and at what bullet weight and velocity? Just curious. My go to elk gun is one of two Remington 700's in 35 Whelen, with a 250 grain Speer at a velocity of 2680fps (24" barrel) or 2750 fps from the 26" barrel which matches the P2 Shepherd reticle out to 800 yards, and is actually high at 900 and 1,000 yards at the altitude where I hunt elk. I also shoot the 225 grain Sierra which gives an extra 75fps to each of these rifles.