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Gday hespco
) but I step away from that & say I do no a couple better & that is honest so my little brother also one the match 
get that
. I live in Saskatchewan. Any "all purpose" hunting cartridge with literally any typical "hunting" bullet will be absolutely fine for our bears this is ridiculous arguing about. 
Don't enter reality into this mental masturbation!Oh good grief people we ain't talking about an Alaskan coastal brownie here…a Saskatchewan black bear!
That said out of a .308 id aim for a mid weight with a mono. I do like exit wounds…but the only thing a really heavy mono will do out of a 308 is kill slower
Good read. I started using the Barnes "X" 6.5 120 gr mono in 1994. For sure took my share of elk with C&C bullets before that. Have taken elk virtually every year since then with a copper mono. A few seasons , two elk , when legal. Mostly the Barnes 120gr ,6.5. I do love the 6.5. Never had a failure. I have used the Hammer 121 gr 6.5 with equal success. Same results with the Badlands. I can not tell the difference in results between these three brands of mono's, with elk. They all have worked flawlessly. When I have talked with the folks at Barnes, Badlands, & Hammer, they have all been exceptional , & have bent over backwards with help. I'm just an old guy ( 78 ) that's been hunting most all my life. I do my best to tell it as I have lived it.Gday hespco
This is where you & I look differently on things & preformance as a base
Now I'm the first to put up my hand & say that is a great result if any one needs to hear it louder a GREAT RESULT yep
Yes I'm not doubting this @ all but with the utmost respect we learn only a couple of things from your results & a example is that @ that impact & resistance it did a wonderful job & penertration length would be known even if you didn't measure it can be estimated within a bulls roar & so on
Yep no worries if that is what people do or if the company in this case badlands takes that information & puts it out that that is how our pills work they are also of the mindset a dead elk all good
Just watch that company if they take that attitude when I know for a fact that nothing goes like that %100 of the time but I don't say we'll that's a 1 off when it goes pear shape I want to know why it has & not all the time but with a pretty high success rate I do find out why yet still a lot I don't know or why but I'm no guru just been told I'm extremely good @ what I do yes I've been told I'm the best many have seen ( nw hunter guess that's my pi—ing match
Yes now enter my world & how anal I am
I don't dismiss the great results like yours it's the less than ideal result I concentrate on NOT to cause conflict it's to raise the bar of what we will hopefully get tomorrow & when I can replicate it over &over it becomes a little clearer well to me
Part of this involves a metal detector , tape measuring equipment , straight rods & data sheets to name my main kit
Then I go to work disecting & putting this information together that over the many years I have built a extremely valuable data base of where a pill has strengths & weaknesses & this I have only shared with a few that I have sounded out from discussions prior to releasing snippets
I'm sorry to do this but I've been burnt bad by misreading my information instead of asking for clarification as I have trouble expressing what I put on paper with clarity but talk I'm all for it as it flows way better for me
& I'm so sorry to do this but that's me
So we enter this world of the badlands 125 gr pill vrs say the 137 hh as a classic to explain the reason why I do what I do
On the face value no difference
Now let's get the real bad part out of the way first
The hammer yep it was absolutely destined to fail big big time
& I don't hide behind when I state something I will show it with clarity & my clarity is critter after critter & while not elk it's still applies to them imo
So Steve & I had words & I remember his well " I'll go & shoot a elk & we will see " my response go get yourself a bloodhound to track the darn thing
He never got the chance because I showed repeatedly where it would fail
Not gel in real life yep tough critters to soft critters & the picture became pretty clear i think for Steve hmm maybe this D I k might be onto something he may have thought & a few designs were cut & sent to me I think first batch was 500 pills which I paid for as I don't want anything for nothing
This pill was way better & would take a elk without any worries but first time I'd seen Steve take hold of that bull & spun up another slightly different again
Hmmm testing again hey presto we now have the 137 we have today ( I call it the 138 for my peanut brain to remember)
Yes I called him out on a public forum so I won't hide behind oh the will be ok when I know it won't done the same with apex & badlands
Now today I have seen both Steve & Brian take it to the next level to get a even greater pill to market hence the delay in releasing their prototype as that is me holding things up as I've been waiting nearly a month for my 5 different versions to arrive can't remember how many but I think 350 is the number & what critters I use them on will take no more than 2 to 3 days to use & gather the data for release & this data won't be when it goes good it's trying to find the weakness that it can then be improved on not saying it will never fail but chances are way less than if Steve took the attitude of the old 137 will kill so all good yep he's past even the new 137 now
Yes if Steve had of stuck his head in the sand & not asked why & dismissed my concerns I would have walked
I've got no skin in anyone's business just love doing what I do
Now I've not only done this with hammers I've done that with apex yet everyone else who tested that design couldn't get close to what I did in less than a box yet it was there they just couldn't see the wood in the trees but once again mark took on board & he has made adjustments for the benefit of all
Now I'll stop on companies who I've helped see what they claim is incorrect but it's a couple more
I've tried the same with badlands & yet I've been met with a different approach which is cool as I'm nothing important but I do know where their pills have a bad weakness just like the old 137 hammer but I am just sitting back till the penny drop moment comes yes it will & I believe Steve will no why it will also & why I suggested they give ea other the heads up on certain things
But solely upto them
No offence intended & the badlands will serve a lot of people well but I know what I will recommend
Hope it's not to abrasive as not my intention just trying to raise the bar & it will be what it will be
Cheers
So, enlighten us all. What copper does Steve use? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get information.
I can't speak to the actual metal itself but I suspect part of the equation is that none of the hammer manufacturing process work hardens the copper. Lathe turned and drilled? No broaching or swaging or anything like that?
Where I come from, that's called gathering business intelligence! Elicitation using the naivete approach.
I find it hard to follow fordy's thoughts but he makes some comments about copper which insinuates he knows something about copper alloys. I have seen pics of Hammers that look very similar to our bullets after high speed impacts. Hornady is not shy about disclosing the copper they use, Barnes obviously, because of the swaging process, has to use a soft copper that work hardens but retains ductility sufficient to petal. That means that it has to be gilding copper or half hard C110. Hornady uses the former. Finding out what copper other manufacturers use is easy. Just send a sample to a testing lab and get a result in 2 weeks. Makes no difference to us because we are very happy with the way the copper we use behaves in our hunting bullets. Not like we are so jealous of other bullets we feel the need to copy them. If it's a trade secret for them, we respect that.Where I come from, that's called gathering business intelligence! Elicitation using the naivete approach.
If you ever actually want to know what I think or if I have any advice to give, let me know. There is another turned bullet manufacture that was willing to help us when we got started. I feel some obligation to pay it forward.
