Berger HUNTING Bullets

[Lpart]

I hate to add fuel to the flames but I had a disturbing experience with the 185 gr hunting VLD's in a 300 Winnie at 2970 fps. Very accurate so I took them to Africa. With quartering frontal shots I failed to reach the vitals on both a Wildebeest and a Zebra. We did track them down and finish them both. PH was unhappy so I retired the 300 in favor of a 375 Ruger with 300 gr North Forks. I did use the 300 on a Leopard however. Shot him while sitting on the ground looking at us in the blind at only 70 yards. At the shot he broke to his right and disappeared in the brush. PH said I missed. I told him no way. When we approached the bait it took the trackers almost 10 minutes to find one drop of blood. Pitch black now as we grabbed flashlights and headed in to the brush for God only knows what. Everybody was wired very tight. Heart was going 100 mph and hands so sweaty I could hardly hold the rifle. We found the cat after 1/2 hour 60 yards in. He was stretched out full length mid stride stone dead. It took us five minutes to find the entry hole. Pencil size and we had to squeeze to get a drop of blood. That bullet never exited a thin skinned cat at 70 yards. The heart and lungs were destroyed. PH was not a happy camper and said he never wanted to see one of those bullets again.

I decided to go to the heavier 215's after this based on reports on this forum. I have shot a sheep and antelope so far with good results. 2 to 3 " exits on both at 300 - 350 yards. I still wonder every time I line up a shot what is going to happen. I have 300 of the new ELD-X on backorder. If they shoot I will be switching for next hunting season.

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

How far were your shots on these elk?

165, 285, 305, & 504.

caliber and impact velocity

300 WM, muzzle velocity 2840 FPS.

 

[bigngreen]

It may give you some piece of mind to work the tips as a lot of competitive shooters do. Berger meplat can be inconsistent and wonky at best. File them flat and hand turn a small drill bit in the tip to cup it a little.

VERY bad advice!!!! All you need to do is know that the tip is open, I know of no competitive shooters using a file and drill bit to meplat trip and uniform with.

 

[BergerBoy]

VERY bad advice!!!! All you need to do is know that the tip is open, I know of no competitive shooters using a file and drill bit to meplat trip and uniform with.

I agree with you on touching the meplat unless you are going to use a die or trimmer made for that. The tips on most hpbt are inconsistent and ugly. The tips are hollow bc of the way they are manufactured-the process.

 

[johnmyers]

I really don't want to argue about bullets, I have nothing to gain other than I hope maybe one of my fellow hunters can avoid the pain and misery I have went through. I spend way to much time to have bullet failure. I'm just going to tell you my opinions, some facts and why I think Berger VLD HUNTING bullets are not worth it as a hunting round. I honestly had blinders put on just because they were so accurate and I wouldn't admit they were not a suitable hunting round. Most guys wont read all of it, if you do and still disagree or call BS, (like I would have when I was still riding the Berger love train) that's fine, but when they do fail you, it took me awhile, maybe you will find a hunting bullet before the buck/bull of your dreams gets away..

I have been running them for years...and was totally drinking the coolaid like most guys that shoot them, bragging about how deadly they were to all my buddies, I did kill a pile of western big game animals from distances of 50 yards to 1100 with not an issue, every chance I could I was saying how awesome they were cause I really thought they were. Defended them when others talked of problems. Well I'm eating crow big time, and I will never hunt with them again....and I'm going to tell you why, sorry it's long but I want to lay it out, not that I had a problem here and there.

For years I ran accubonds, out of just about everything...and they were a great bullet, killed ****..dead...any hit center mass was a dead animal... And shot pretty good I thought. But one day, like ten years ago, my buddy is telling me about these new "burger" bullets (never heard of then before that), and how awesome the coefficientcy was...and they are a hunting bullet, he bought some and loaded them up in a 7mm and I truly about died at the accuracy... He was grouping better than he had ever shot, It peaked my interest...so I bought some.

I started shooting a 180 grain 30 cal, out of my Weatherby 30/378...groups immediately tightened...I then bought some 168's for my wife's 30/06...groups were best I had ever had that gun do without even hardly playing with the load...

Before I knew it, I had loads dialed up for every gun I owned, .243's, 300 RUM, .223 you name it I was shooting bergers! Loved them, accuracy was so important to me.

In the first year we shot antelope, elk, deer, and **** we had good results, even sub par shots....**** died....i was officially drinking the coolaid...

First failure-
A buddy called me a year later and asked if I could help him come try to find a buck the next morning he had just shot, he was shooting a 300 RUM 190 grain VLD I believe....like 200 yards..we went back in to where he had shot and nothing, no blood, not ****...he was convinced he had hit it so we kept at it, 250 yards from where he shot we found him piled up...make no mistake...this thing was shot perfect, mid body, just behind shoulder, .30 cal entrance, .30 cal exit...no expansion, right between ribs....now in all my life, I have never saw such a perfect shot placement with no blood....I wrote it off, as anamoly.

Wyoming Back-to-Back Failures-
I drew a tag in one of my favorite areas about 5 years ago...to this point I had killed probably 10/15 mature mule deer with bergers...a few antelope and elk and been running 180 grain VLD's out of my 300 RUM. I had never had anything take more than probably thirty steps, dead on impact... I ranted and raved continually, so accurate, so deadly.. I had found a buck with a 8" drop club that was sitting on a 185" frame, I spent a pile of money and time on this buck...opening morning I was going to get him....It worked perfect...he came into the same avalanche chute opening morning at 500 yards...it was a slam dunk, I loaded and put one just behind his shoulder and the buck was down immediately...I was in disbelief, could not believe how easy, my buddy and I headed for the horses, why we were crossing canyon we noticed another buck (we thought) headed out bottom of chute... We got over there, buck was gone...blood in small pile, some hair, and about a five foot blood trail that ended up to nothing... I spent days, and days looking for him....never found him.. I had never saw anything like it...

During the search for my deer I saw something that should have been like a slap in the face to me but I couldn't stop my man crush with Berger at the time..I was glassing for birds on a hillside and saw a nice buck get up, I was watching him and two smaller bucks feed in my spotting scope when the big buck got slammed, big kick and away they all ran, I watched the buck tip over after he went through a few small chutes and around a hill... Twenty minutes later I see the guy who shot come up and wonder around for what seemed like forever...It was getting dark and I thought I would go help him and show him where it was...needless to say, no blood... Nothing... Again...I couldn't believe it... But I assumed we had just missed the blood, he was chocking it up for a miss and was heading off mountain, he couldn't believe when I told him he was dead.. The guy was shooting a 7mm, Bergers, imagine that... There was a perfect 7mm entrance and exit hole when we caped him, missed shoulder by inches...truly a great shot and he thought he had missed.... I went back to where he shot it the next day on my way up... No blood... I thought maybe he was shooting target bullets or something and still didn't stop my Berger crush...

Last year-
My buddy and I finally found a buck we had been after, a B&C typical Muley.... We got into position and my buddy drills him. 800 yards, 190 grain 300 RUM. It was low and back... Saw impact in the spotting scope a classic gut shot, next shot looked middle of the body.... Deer went into trees..the canyon we we're glassing across was strait cliffs below us, we decided to give the deer six/seven hours and go recover...when we got to the big dead pine the deer was standing next too I turned sick when we found no blood... I had saw this... We spent forever wandering around...around 1/2 mile away we finally jump him at 100 yards and get lucky as hell to get a shot and kill him. He had hit the buck in the guts, twice... Now I have shot deer in the guts with a bow and saw them die... In the hide there was no expansion, again, no bone, meat... Bergers shot through like a full metal jacket. Buck didn't even act phased.

My wife ends up having to shoot a bull elk 7 times...and he wouldn't go down, 350 yards with 168 grain VLD's, the bull was broadside, in a wide open basin..her first shot was perfect, second was high, third actually knocked him down and from that point I could just tell if he was getting hit or not...the bull soaked them up...running though a small drainage...*** exactly happened I do not know but she finally dumped him on her 7th shot and the bull laid in the brush and bled out after another 15 minutes of kicking and moaning, gargling etc...not an easy way to make sure she continues her excitement about hunting...I had never in my life saw something like that...the craziest part is, and honest to god I don't know how this happens, but after taking seven shots...the bull was not bleeding except the last shot that she put in his neck... These bullets were not working...and I was really getting upset.

This year-
I decided to upsize my bullets, go to a heavier load, little more ft pounds of energy... I went to the 210 grain VLD, running 3100 FPS out of a new 300 RUM i had built over the summer...gun is the best shooting gun I have ever been around, I'm touching rounds at 300 yards. My wife shoots a bull twice, 550 yards, first round the bull fell right over, rolled, we high fived, told her congrats and I look up and the bull is trying to stand...she loads another round and puts him down..this was all minutes before dark... I headed to get sat messenger, to get some help coming and meat packs...she stayed put and waited for me to get back, we get to bull and he is sitting with his head up, still not dead, I was sick...she had to shoot him again, in the dark, at point blank...I was not happy...this **** was starting to get old...bull was hit in shoulder twice with a 210 grain VLD going 3100 FPS...these were perfect shots, the bull was hit with just barely under 3000 foot pounds of energy each shot...I recovered one bullet in the shoulder, the other one had disintegrated.

I end up finding a hell of a buck, and just before dark we find him in an avalanche chute at 600 yards...I shot the new ultra, 210's and get him just behind shoulder...buck ran into pines and I knew he was dead... But I elected to wait til morning, he was huge and I didn't want to have problems finding him or find him wounded in the dark.. I spent three weeks, this is all on film... I know exactly where he was standing and where I hit and I have still not found him. I'm honestly sick... Thousands and thousands of dollars a guy can spend to use ****** bullets..



In conclusion... I am done...I'll be shooting them at competitions, but no more animals.

Did you contact Berger about your problem? If not I'm sure they would have done everything possible to see what the problem is and tried to make things right.

 

[Pdvdh]

Did you contact Berger about your problem? If not I'm sure they would have done everything possible to see what the problem is and tried to make things right.

I think it's more complicated than that. As to making it right? Impossible after the fact.

 

[ohiohunter]

VERY bad advice!!!! All you need to do is know that the tip is open, I know of no competitive shooters using a file and drill bit to meplat trip and uniform with.

I did not say that is what they do, but yes in fact a lot of top shooters manipulate the meplat on their bullets. Why would a target shooter be worried about having a hollow point???

I'm not suggesting going to town on it, just clean it up and make sure there a good hollow point.

You act as if this would cause a catastrophic failure. Hell I recently watched a guy load bullets backwards to elicit more damage to his target. More of a self defense thing but whatever.

 

[Barrelnut]

Hell I recently watched a guy load bullets backwards to elicit more damage to his target. More of a self defense thing but whatever.

Wow. Don't mess with those Ohio folks.

 

[WildRose]

I did not say that is what they do, but yes in fact a lot of top shooters manipulate the meplat on their bullets. Why would a target shooter be worried about having a hollow point???

I'm not suggesting going to town on it, just clean it up and make sure there a good hollow point.

You act as if this would cause a catastrophic failure. Hell I recently watched a guy load bullets backwards to elicit more damage to his target. More of a self defense thing but whatever.

My own opinion only of course but for what we pay for premium bullets they should be right when they come out of the box.

If you shoot hollow points on game though failures to expand and bullets that blow up and don't penetrate properly are always going to be a problem because of the nature of the hollow point itself.

 

[bigngreen]

Not the case, I've personally had far more issues from tipped bullets than from open tip bullets, I see much more consistent wound channels also than I ever did shooting accubonds or ttsx.

 

[ohiohunter]

My own opinion only of course but for what we pay for premium bullets they should be right when they come out of the box.

If you shoot hollow points on game though failures to expand and bullets that blow up and don't penetrate properly are always going to be a problem because of the nature of the hollow point itself.

I agree, but thats not the case. Bergers have sloppy meplat thats a fact. Also there are a lot of guys hunting w/ what berger calls a target bullet. I will add the 195's look like their quality control is a little more up to speed compared to their 180s. I'm glad there is finally good competition in the high BC game from companies like Lapua, Sierra, Hornady.... etc that will put the pressure on berger for more consistent bullets.

Furthermore the target guys are tipping and trimming meplat to get higher more consistent BC out of their target bullets. But this is the exact opposite a hunter would want to do, either way manipulating the -sloppy- meplat for a desired effect.

FWIW.. When you get only 1 shot I'd rather make sure my tips are GTG vs settling for a less wind bucking bullet. Inspecting a handful of bullets for a hunting trip is nothing when you think about the target guys tipping and trimming 1000's of bullets over time. Do what works for you and your conscience, and I'll do whats good for mine.... a good ol cut on contact broadhead

 

[ohiohunter]

Wow. Don't mess with those Ohio folks.

He only shot gelatin but it was like a 30cal full bore wad cutter w/ a slight cup hollow point. It'd make a mess of ya real quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZAyhv0xqUI

 

[WildRose]

Not the case, I've personally had far more issues from tipped bullets than from open tip bullets, I see much more consistent wound channels also than I ever did shooting accubonds or ttsx.

I'd chalk that up to luck.

They are designed to expand violently and when they perform properly you definitely get really big wound channels for sure but if you are not paying particular attention to keeping the tips open and ensuring they are open deep enough you'll get a lot of pencils.

I've also seen personally far too many of them blow up skin deep producing a huge, nasty but shallow wound.

When I was young and we could make good money hide hunting once I started shooting High velocity bullets like the .17 Rem and 220 Swift we went from HP's to solids or the old, original Barnes X's because we were getting way too many of the shallw or contact explosions ruining hides. In those days we could get 150-200.00 for a prime coyote and 350.00 for a quality large mature Bobcat.

I shot a lot of the Winchester Failsafes on deer and antelope and consistently got exits I could stick my fist through and that just doesn't work for me either.

I hit a running coyote with the 7mm STW shooting I think the 160 Failsafe at about 350yds, hit him at about the third rib from the back and literally cut him in half.

On the other hand I've shot a ton of game with the Interlock, Interbond, and accubond and never had one fail to do the job.

I don't doubt you've had good service with what you shoot, you're a smart guy and would change if it isn't working but as a family we'd put five to fifteen deer in the freezer every year for over 30 years and I'm just not shooting any more HP's on game.

 

[WildRose]

I agree, but thats not the case. Bergers have sloppy meplat thats a fact. Also there are a lot of guys hunting w/ what berger calls a target bullet. I will add the 195's look like their quality control is a little more up to speed compared to their 180s. I'm glad there is finally good competition in the high BC game from companies like Lapua, Sierra, Hornady.... etc that will put the pressure on berger for more consistent bullets.

Furthermore the target guys are tipping and trimming meplat to get higher more consistent BC out of their target bullets. But this is the exact opposite a hunter would want to do, either way manipulating the -sloppy- meplat for a desired effect.

FWIW.. When you get only 1 shot I'd rather make sure my tips are GTG vs settling for a less wind bucking bullet. Inspecting a handful of bullets for a hunting trip is nothing when you think about the target guys tipping and trimming 1000's of bullets over time. Do what works for you and your conscience, and I'll do whats good for mine.... a good ol cut on contact broadhead

Terminal performance is most important to me which is why the Interbond from Hornady has remained my mainstay for years. I've shot prairie dogs with them to 500yds and jackrabbits a good bit further. There are bullets that fly a little better but hey if you can consistently nail critters that small at those ranges they're flying good enough for medium and large game.