Berger hunting bullet paperclip/staple testing

[Bigeclipse]

All you berger users,
I have heard the horror stories of some of these bullets not expanding properly and from what I read it sounds like it is kind of rare and likely due to the hollowpoint cavity of the bullet not being deep enough. I have read that a couple comments which people use either a paper clip or staple to see the depth of the hollow point and shallow ones are then discarded or used during load workup. I am very interested in using these bullets but a bit hesitant due to the few horror stories out there. Do you believe the hollowpoint cavity is indeed the culprit in these horro stories? Do you believe this test is a viable test to help prevent issues? If you look hard enough, you can find horror stories for about every bullet out there. Looking forward to some opinions and such. Thanks!

 

[Bigeclipse]

no one has heard of this?

 

[MudRunner2005]

Bergers have been excellent bullets for me. And even the 1 Berger that didn't expand the deer still flopped over DRT and never moved again. So, my opinion on the matter is that shot placement is key, regardless of what bullet you are using.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Bergers have been excellent bullets for me. And even the 1 Berger that didn't expand the deer still flopped over DRT and never moved again. So, my opinion on the matter is that shot placement is key, regardless of what bullet you are using.

I have been a faithful user of accubonds. Accubonds have been the only bullet ive reloaded with, except I use gamekings on my 3006. I am a tinkerer by heart and love reloading and bergers have always crossed my mind because I like the idea of a complete energy dump inside the animal. Only concern is I shoot mainly short to mid range 0-500 yards and if a trophy buck stepped out at 50 yards and the only shot is a hard quartering towards you type shot through the shoulder bone...will the bullet do its job or will it explode on impact not making to vitals or not expand and zip through making a pencil hole.

 

[azsugarbear]

To my understanding, there has been no exhaustive or even scientific study on Berger bullets failing to open. What you are reading about is anecdotal evidence. Bear in mind, I am not discrediting these experiences in any way. I'm just stating that there has been no definitive, scientific study to determine if there is even a problem. There have been some bullets that have failed to open up, but I believe that is to be found with nearly all bullets. I don't believe there is a single bullet out there that performs exactly the same 100% of the time. We continue that search for the 'Holy Grail' of bullets.

In LR hunting, there always seems to be a trade off. To get something, you gotta give up something. More steel around the barrel usually equates to better, more repeatable accuracy. We move to carbon wrapped barrels to get both the accuracy and weight savings, but get hit hard in the wallet. With bullets we tend to see more of the same. I love the Barnes bullets. When it comes to hitting bone or dumping an animal at close range, they are my go-to bullet. However, their BC leaves me wanting for the LR shots.

Berger has a great hunting bullet with a great BC. It tends to dump most (if not all) of its energy in an animal, but it doesn't always perform well on bone at closer distances. So you have to choose the model/bullet that best fits your overall hunting situations. I shoot Berger in most of my rigs, but I tuck away in the back of my mind that high shoulder shots are suspect when taken at shorter ranges. In those situations, I go for the boiler room.

Regarding the clogging of some Berger hollow points: that was a problem noted a few years ago. I think their QC has largely solved that problem. But Berger continues to study and address the rare 'penciling' situation that occurs.

There are threads on LRH where members describe 'annealing' their Berger tips to solve this potential problem. While these members feel it largely solves the problem, Berger neither recommends nor endorses the action. Others (like myself) have gone to uniforming the tips and chamfering the hollow points. I do this more for accurate COL measurements and the consistency in flight than bullet performance.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I have been a faithful user of accubonds. Accubonds have been the only bullet ive reloaded with, except I use gamekings on my 3006. I am a tinkerer by heart and love reloading and bergers have always crossed my mind because I like the idea of a complete energy dump inside the animal. Only concern is I shoot mainly short to mid range 0-500 yards and if a trophy buck stepped out at 50 yards and the only shot is a hard quartering towards you type shot through the shoulder bone...will the bullet do its job or will it explode on impact not making to vitals or not expand and zip through making a pencil hole.

Nobody can determine that. Every situation will always have multiple different factors to account for, so it is a guarantee, that nothing is guaranteed.

I used to be an Accubond shooter, until I realized that there were better bullets out there for where I like to place my shots. I shoot behind the shoulder, so Bergers work great for me. I get the explosive shock to the vitals needed for a shot placed in that vicinity. For a soft-tissue shot, you don't want a bonded or mono bullet, and probably won't get much, if any, expansion if you don't hit bone.

The first deer I killed with my .257 Wby was just inside of 100 yards, and a 110 Accubond moving nearly 3,500 fps MV. The bullet slipped between 2 ribs in AND out, and never touched a bone. Pencil in, pencil out, no blood. The lungs looked like chunky jello from the magnitude of the extreme velocity the bullet was traveling, but the deer ran **** near as far the shot was taken at.

Moral of the story... Bonded bullets function just like mono bullets if they don't hit anything solid...Even if they are traveling at extreme velocities.

 

[Broz]

To my understanding, there has been no exhaustive or even scientific study on Berger bullets failing to open. What you are reading about is anecdotal evidence. Bear in mind, I am not discrediting these experiences in any way. I'm just stating that there has been no definitive, scientific study to determine if there is even a problem. There have been some bullets that have failed to open up, but I believe that is to be found with nearly all bullets. I don't believe there is a single bullet out there that performs exactly the same 100% of the time. We continue that search for the 'Holy Grail' of bullets.

In LR hunting, there always seems to be a trade off. To get something, you gotta give up something. More steel around the barrel usually equates to better, more repeatable accuracy. We move to carbon wrapped barrels to get both the accuracy and weight savings, but get hit hard in the wallet. With bullets we tend to see more of the same. I love the Barnes bullets. When it comes to hitting bone or dumping an animal at close range, they are my go-to bullet. However, their BC leaves me wanting for the LR shots.

Berger has a great hunting bullet with a great BC. It tends to dump most (if not all) of its energy in an animal, but it doesn't always perform well on bone at closer distances. So you have to choose the model/bullet that best fits your overall hunting situations. I shoot Berger in most of my rigs, but I tuck away in the back of my mind that high shoulder shots are suspect when taken at shorter ranges. In those situations, I go for the boiler room.

Regarding the clogging of some Berger hollow points: that was a problem noted a few years ago. I think their QC has largely solved that problem. But Berger continues to study and address the rare 'penciling' situation that occurs.

There are threads on LRH where members describe 'annealing' their Berger tips to solve this potential problem. While these members feel it largely solves the problem, Berger neither recommends nor endorses the action. Others (like myself) have gone to uniforming the tips and chamfering the hollow points. I do this more for accurate COL measurements and the consistency in flight than bullet performance.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Lots of good sense and truth here.

I shoot Bergers in my long range hunting rigs. I need the accuracy and BC. These things are most important to me. No I don't feel they are the best choice for a quartering 50 yard shot through the thickest part of the shoulder. Especially from a high velocity rifle. But I would not have a problem taking that shot with them. Why, because I use large for caliber bullets and always have enough gun for the job no mater what shot is presented. this year alone we have taken more than 60 big game animals. Mostly elk, most with Bergers. Not one issue. A couple did require a second shot. Why? Well this was from the smallest rifle we used and that was a 7mm. I do check all the tips for two things. 1: size of opening. 2: Make sure it is open all the way back to lead. For this I use a pin vice and a small drill bit. I do not modify the tips, or enlarge the opening. The bit size is determined by the average opening in the bullet I am using as it came from Berger.

I myself have never had one fail with 100's of big game kills. But I do believe if a tip was closed it could have an effect on the way the bullet opens. So I consider it due diligence on my part to check this. It only takes a few minutes to do enough to last a while for hunting.

Here are some pics of a close up shot on a large Mule deer buck this year. Since this was your scenario. High velocity rifle, bullet entered caliber size, pretty good blood trail for the few steps he took, and a perfect golf ball sized exit.

I will continue to use Bergers. and I will do my best to place them well. I will not blame any bullet for a poorly placed shot.

 

[Broz]

Oh. I did loose about a meatballs worth of meat too.

Jeff

 

[Bigeclipse]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Lots of good sense and truth here.

I shoot Bergers in my long range hunting rigs. I need the accuracy and BC. These things are most important to me. No I don't feel they are the best choice for a quartering 50 yard shot through the thickest part of the shoulder. Especially from a high velocity rifle. But I would not have a problem taking that shot with them. Why, because I use large for caliber bullets and always have enough gun for the job no mater what shot is presented. this year alone we have taken more than 60 big game animals. Mostly elk, most with Bergers. Not one issue. A couple did require a second shot. Why? Well this was from the smallest rifle we used and that was a 7mm. I do check all the tips for two things. 1: size of opening. 2: Make sure it is open all the way back to lead. For this I use a pin vice and a small drill bit. I do not modify the tips, or enlarge the opening. The bit size is determined by the average opening in the bullet I am using as it came from Berger.

I myself have never had one fail with 100's of big game kills.

The rifle in question would be a 7mm08 shooting 140grain VLDs. Estimated velocity would be between 2700-2900 fps. Right now getting 2750 fps with the accubonds with no signs of pressure so could push a bit faster but accuracy is decent. Was hoping for more accuracy so was going to test a different bullet and thought of the VLDs because I do like the idea of full energy dump. All this being said, it is my wife's rifle and if she hit a shoulder bone quartering too shot on a NY whitetail buck (they weigh about 200-230 average on the hoof) and it simply did not kill the deer, id feel terrible. She is an excellent shot and would wait for a broadside shot but if the only shot is a higher shoulder shot into lungs, will the 140 VLD from her 7mm08 do it?

 

[Dosh]

Big, I always check the tip of the Bergers I load, but if it's open I don't touch it. I've killed or seen elk and mule deer killed with several calibers using the Berger and they all died instantly or within a few steps. All were hit behind the shoulder except one elk I shot quartering which went straight down but had some damage to the brisket. Never seen a single Berger pencil hole even at 50 yards. As stated, hit them in the boiler room where this bullet does its job best. Try them, you'll like them.

 

[Broz]

The rifle in question would be a 7mm08 shooting 140grain VLDs. Estimated velocity would be between 2700-2900 fps. Right now getting 2750 fps with the accubonds with no signs of pressure so could push a bit faster but accuracy is decent. Was hoping for more accuracy so was going to test a different bullet and thought of the VLDs because I do like the idea of full energy dump. All this being said, it is my wife's rifle and if she hit a shoulder bone quartering too shot on a NY whitetail buck (they weigh about 200-230 average on the hoof) and it simply did not kill the deer, id feel terrible. She is an excellent shot and would wait for a broadside shot but if the only shot is a higher shoulder shot into lungs, will the 140 VLD from her 7mm08 do it?

I will be very frank. If you are asking for a guarantee for any bullet in the worst possible case , then good luck. Are you reading what has been posted? There is no bullet made that is perfect for every situation. So, the 7mm-08 is a good caliber for deer yes. But will it kill a large buck like a 300 win with a poor shot , heck no. I don't like high shoulder shots, why? Because they waste meat and that is a small kill zone. Yes it will put them down fast. That is if you actually do hit the CNS. But you know what? I have to cut the throats of many of these high shoulder hits. I personally don't like to see the animal squall and suffer like this if all you get is CNS. It takes vital damage to kill fast, not just immobilizing them. I had to cover the eyes of two elk this year as I slit their throats from high shoulder hits. I covered the eyes to calm them. If you want to guarantee no wrecks for your wife or you to have to be a part of. The best defense is don't take a poorly presented shot and place what ever bullet you choose well. Accuracy will surely help here , right?

Jeff

 

[danj]

Well said Jeff. +1

 

[Bigeclipse]

I will be very frank. If you are asking for a guarantee for any bullet in the worst possible case , then good luck. Are you reading what has been posted? There is no bullet made that is perfect for every situation. So, the 7mm-08 is a good caliber for deer yes. But will it kill a large buck like a 300 win with a poor shot , heck no. I don't like high shoulder shots, why? Because they waste meat and that is a small kill zone. Yes it will put them down fast. That is if you actually do hit the CNS. But you know what? I have to cut the throats of many of these high shoulder hits. I personally don't like to see the animal squall and suffer like this if all you get is CNS. It takes vital damage to kill fast, not just immobilizing them. I had to cover the eyes of two elk this year as I slit their throats from high shoulder hits. I covered the eyes to calm them. If you want to guarantee no wrecks for your wife or you to have to be a part of. The best defense is don't take a poorly presented shot and place what ever bullet you choose well. Accuracy will surely help here , right?

Jeff

well said and yes I have been reading this info for a few years now. I know there is no perfect bullet for everything. I didn't mean to sound like I want a bullet to do everything. I know proper bullet selection is key and waiting for the right shot. But I also am not a dreamer and I know if the buck of a lifetime comes out a lot closer than expected and for some reason all she has is a shoulder shot...she would likely take it. If that means staying with the accubond, then so be it. If the 140grain VLD from her 7mm-08 going say 2800fps would blow the shoulder apart and put the deer down while ruining a bit of meat but still killing the deer humanely then great but if it means there is a good chance that the bullet will not put the deer down then id stay with the accubond is all im saying.

 

[Broz]

well said. I didn't mean to sound like I want a bullet to do everything. I know proper bullet selection is key and waiting for the right shot. But I also am not a dreamer and I know if the buck of a lifetime comes out and for some reason all she has is a shoulder shot...she would likely take it. If that means staying with the accubond, then so be it. It the 140grain VLD from her 7mm-08 going say 2800fps would blow the shoulder apart and put the deer down while ruining a bit of meat...so be it but if it means the bullet will not put the deer down then id stay with the accubond is all im saying.

Lets look hard at what you are posting here. Why does a "Buck of a lifetime" make any difference? Do they not deserve the same respect of a well placed shot as a small doe? So listen to what you are saying here. I want to use a small rifle with a small for caliber bullet. I want to take a poor shot that supports a low percentage chance to enter the vitals, and I want it dead now with little or no chance of a wreck. If you want to have all this then shoot a 338 with a 300 gr Berger OTM and you have a very good chance of what you are asking for. If you want to use one of the smallest 7mm chamberings you can, and use a light for caliber bullet to boot, then yes the chance of a wreck is there. I feel there is just as much risk with the Accubombs. I have seen plenty of tipped bullets over expand when introduced into hard bone at a close distance.

Jeff