Berger HUNTING Bullets

[ntrl_brn_rebel]

I really don't want to argue about bullets, I have nothing to gain other than I hope maybe one of my fellow hunters can avoid the pain and misery I have went through. I spend way to much time to have bullet failure. I'm just going to tell you my opinions, some facts and why I think Berger VLD HUNTING bullets are not worth it as a hunting round. I honestly had blinders put on just because they were so accurate and I wouldn't admit they were not a suitable hunting round. Most guys wont read all of it, if you do and still disagree or call BS, (like I would have when I was still riding the Berger love train) that's fine, but when they do fail you, it took me awhile, maybe you will find a hunting bullet before the buck/bull of your dreams gets away..

I have been running them for years...and was totally drinking the coolaid like most guys that shoot them, bragging about how deadly they were to all my buddies, I did kill a pile of western big game animals from distances of 50 yards to 1100 with not an issue, every chance I could I was saying how awesome they were cause I really thought they were. Defended them when others talked of problems. Well I'm eating crow big time, and I will never hunt with them again....and I'm going to tell you why, sorry it's long but I want to lay it out, not that I had a problem here and there.

For years I ran accubonds, out of just about everything...and they were a great bullet, killed ****..dead...any hit center mass was a dead animal... And shot pretty good I thought. But one day, like ten years ago, my buddy is telling me about these new "burger" bullets (never heard of then before that), and how awesome the coefficientcy was...and they are a hunting bullet, he bought some and loaded them up in a 7mm and I truly about died at the accuracy... He was grouping better than he had ever shot, It peaked my interest...so I bought some.

I started shooting a 180 grain 30 cal, out of my Weatherby 30/378...groups immediately tightened...I then bought some 168's for my wife's 30/06...groups were best I had ever had that gun do without even hardly playing with the load...

Before I knew it, I had loads dialed up for every gun I owned, .243's, 300 RUM, .223 you name it I was shooting bergers! Loved them, accuracy was so important to me.

In the first year we shot antelope, elk, deer, and **** we had good results, even sub par shots....**** died....i was officially drinking the coolaid...

First failure-
A buddy called me a year later and asked if I could help him come try to find a buck the next morning he had just shot, he was shooting a 300 RUM 190 grain VLD I believe....like 200 yards..we went back in to where he had shot and nothing, no blood, not ****...he was convinced he had hit it so we kept at it, 250 yards from where he shot we found him piled up...make no mistake...this thing was shot perfect, mid body, just behind shoulder, .30 cal entrance, .30 cal exit...no expansion, right between ribs....now in all my life, I have never saw such a perfect shot placement with no blood....I wrote it off, as anamoly.

Wyoming Back-to-Back Failures-
I drew a tag in one of my favorite areas about 5 years ago...to this point I had killed probably 10/15 mature mule deer with bergers...a few antelope and elk and been running 180 grain VLD's out of my 300 RUM. I had never had anything take more than probably thirty steps, dead on impact... I ranted and raved continually, so accurate, so deadly.. I had found a buck with a 8" drop club that was sitting on a 185" frame, I spent a pile of money and time on this buck...opening morning I was going to get him....It worked perfect...he came into the same avalanche chute opening morning at 500 yards...it was a slam dunk, I loaded and put one just behind his shoulder and the buck was down immediately...I was in disbelief, could not believe how easy, my buddy and I headed for the horses, why we were crossing canyon we noticed another buck (we thought) headed out bottom of chute... We got over there, buck was gone...blood in small pile, some hair, and about a five foot blood trail that ended up to nothing... I spent days, and days looking for him....never found him.. I had never saw anything like it...

During the search for my deer I saw something that should have been like a slap in the face to me but I couldn't stop my man crush with Berger at the time..I was glassing for birds on a hillside and saw a nice buck get up, I was watching him and two smaller bucks feed in my spotting scope when the big buck got slammed, big kick and away they all ran, I watched the buck tip over after he went through a few small chutes and around a hill... Twenty minutes later I see the guy who shot come up and wonder around for what seemed like forever...It was getting dark and I thought I would go help him and show him where it was...needless to say, no blood... Nothing... Again...I couldn't believe it... But I assumed we had just missed the blood, he was chocking it up for a miss and was heading off mountain, he couldn't believe when I told him he was dead.. The guy was shooting a 7mm, Bergers, imagine that... There was a perfect 7mm entrance and exit hole when we caped him, missed shoulder by inches...truly a great shot and he thought he had missed.... I went back to where he shot it the next day on my way up... No blood... I thought maybe he was shooting target bullets or something and still didn't stop my Berger crush...

Last year-
My buddy and I finally found a buck we had been after, a B&C typical Muley.... We got into position and my buddy drills him. 800 yards, 190 grain 300 RUM. It was low and back... Saw impact in the spotting scope a classic gut shot, next shot looked middle of the body.... Deer went into trees..the canyon we we're glassing across was strait cliffs below us, we decided to give the deer six/seven hours and go recover...when we got to the big dead pine the deer was standing next too I turned sick when we found no blood... I had saw this... We spent forever wandering around...around 1/2 mile away we finally jump him at 100 yards and get lucky as hell to get a shot and kill him. He had hit the buck in the guts, twice... Now I have shot deer in the guts with a bow and saw them die... In the hide there was no expansion, again, no bone, meat... Bergers shot through like a full metal jacket. Buck didn't even act phased.

My wife ends up having to shoot a bull elk 7 times...and he wouldn't go down, 350 yards with 168 grain VLD's, the bull was broadside, in a wide open basin..her first shot was perfect, second was high, third actually knocked him down and from that point I could just tell if he was getting hit or not...the bull soaked them up...running though a small drainage...*** exactly happened I do not know but she finally dumped him on her 7th shot and the bull laid in the brush and bled out after another 15 minutes of kicking and moaning, gargling etc...not an easy way to make sure she continues her excitement about hunting...I had never in my life saw something like that...the craziest part is, and honest to god I don't know how this happens, but after taking seven shots...the bull was not bleeding except the last shot that she put in his neck... These bullets were not working...and I was really getting upset.

This year-
I decided to upsize my bullets, go to a heavier load, little more ft pounds of energy... I went to the 210 grain VLD, running 3100 FPS out of a new 300 RUM i had built over the summer...gun is the best shooting gun I have ever been around, I'm touching rounds at 300 yards. My wife shoots a bull twice, 550 yards, first round the bull fell right over, rolled, we high fived, told her congrats and I look up and the bull is trying to stand...she loads another round and puts him down..this was all minutes before dark... I headed to get sat messenger, to get some help coming and meat packs...she stayed put and waited for me to get back, we get to bull and he is sitting with his head up, still not dead, I was sick...she had to shoot him again, in the dark, at point blank...I was not happy...this **** was starting to get old...bull was hit in shoulder twice with a 210 grain VLD going 3100 FPS...these were perfect shots, the bull was hit with just barely under 3000 foot pounds of energy each shot...I recovered one bullet in the shoulder, the other one had disintegrated.

I end up finding a hell of a buck, and just before dark we find him in an avalanche chute at 600 yards...I shot the new ultra, 210's and get him just behind shoulder...buck ran into pines and I knew he was dead... But I elected to wait til morning, he was huge and I didn't want to have problems finding him or find him wounded in the dark.. I spent three weeks, this is all on film... I know exactly where he was standing and where I hit and I have still not found him. I'm honestly sick... Thousands and thousands of dollars a guy can spend to use ****** bullets..



In conclusion... I am done...I'll be shooting them at competitions, but no more animals...

 

[brentc]

Wow! Hard for me to argue anything you said since I've seen the same type of failure with a 210 on a large black bear. I chalked it up to a bad tip since nobody else was admitting failure.

 

[ShootnMathews]

I only killed two deer with them. Both with a 6.5-284. One at 80 yards. Bullets left a 6" exit hole after hitting a rib on entrance. Second deer was 250 yards and the deer had a 6.5 mm entrance and exit. Which was a bit disturbing. But the deer only went 50 yards. The lungs inside were pretty tore up and I just assumed maybe only a bullet fragment exited and left the small exit. But never the less I quit using them and went back to my Nosler Ballistic tips. I've never lost an animal with those so I have a ton of confidence in them. Although I put a picture perfect shot on a nice 9 pt last year with my 243 and 95 grn BT and watched it run 125 yards out or sight. Maybe farther. I thought ***, I know I hit it, it was 70 yards away and this gun shoots 2" groups at 500 yards. I found maybe one or two tiny drops of blood. That's all. The only saving grace is I saw where it went and I followed its trail in the leaves. About 200 or more yards away the trail in leaves ended and I thought oh crap, now what. There was a slight drop off beside on where the leaf trail ended. So I peeked over it and there he was, stone dead. I rolled the deer over and it had an exit hole that you could hide a golf ball in, dead center of lungs. When I gutted it, the lungs were completely destroyed, so how it ran that far with that big of a hole without leaving a blood trail is beyond me.

 

[PGJPJ]

Thanks for the thoughtful write-up. I'm planning to use them for the first time with a 280ai I'm having built. I'm on the fence, I've read several of the "best thing since sliced bread" and lots of "this is the worst hunting bullet ever invented."

I use Partitions with my 300 winnie, and I used to use (before having the rifle rebarreled to 280ai) the 140 grn Accubond in my 270. Both are very much proven hunting bullets. But I'm going to see for myself with the Bergers. No elk (300 winnie takes that role), but deer and pronghorn. So we'll see.

 

[ZSteinle]

cross your fingers for the ELD-x.

 

[aebhunter]

Like anything, probably not one perfect set-up for every scenario. I had a very similar experience with a bull I shot with my .300 win mag pushing 190 vld hunting bullets at about 3100 fps. Placed a shot on him 6 inches behind the front shoulder and the bull ran off like he hadn't even been touched. Luckily, it was in semi-open country and I was able to see him fall. He traveled quite a ways before he tipped over dead, and there was virtually no blood trail whatsoever. I wrote it off as an anomaly as well. Shooting 215s now, see how those work. It does suck not having confidence in your set-up though, no matter what piece of equipment you are using.

 

[ohiohunter]

It may give you some piece of mind to work the tips as a lot of competitive shooters do. Berger meplat can be inconsistent and wonky at best. File them flat and hand turn a small drill bit in the tip to cup it a little.

 

[WildRose]

We had a rather long and drawn out thread here a year or so back trying to nail down the failure problem with the Berger's.

One thing that Berger found was that not all of the hollow points were hollow deep enough to to ensure good expansion which explained the penciling through shots.

Guys found that if you took a small paper clip and inserted it into the hole if it went to a certain depth the bullet would probably open up ok.

Hollow points are always temperamental no matter who is making them. It seems like more often than not you either end up with a hole you can stick your fist through or one that is basically caliber sized in and the same out.

Many of the other manufacturers have addressed the inconsistency by using the polymer tips, Peregrine uses a copper tip with a brass plunger, and now Hornady is using their new heat resistant polymer tip.

Personally while I've never been sold on the Berger's for a hunting bullet I can't say enough about the Berger crew and their dedication to producing the best bullet they can and more importantly their willingness to consider the feed back they get from their customers particularly on this forum.

I've used them to shoot a lot of predators though but they are just too temperamental for me to use on medium or large game.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I have had failures with Hornady SST, Barnes TSX, Nosler Accubonds, and 1 Berger.

All of them required tracking, EXCEPT the Berger. The deer shot with the Berger never took a step, and hit the ground dead. Entrance & exit were bullet size (7mm), and when we picked up the deer it literally left a couple of drops of blood on the ground. The heart was popped like a balloon. Even when the bullet failed to open, it still did its job perfectly as one of the quickest and cleanest kills I've made to date.

Even if the bullet fails (which all brands will at some point), good shot placement is still the most important factor.

 

[BergerBoy]

I really don't want to argue about bullets, I have nothing to gain other than I hope maybe one of my fellow hunters can avoid the pain and misery I have went through. I spend way to much time to have bullet failure. I'm just going to tell you my opinions, some facts and why I think Berger VLD HUNTING bullets are not worth it as a hunting round. I honestly had blinders put on just because they were so accurate and I wouldn't admit they were not a suitable hunting round. Most guys wont read all of it, if you do and still disagree or call BS, (like I would have when I was still riding the Berger love train) that's fine, but when they do fail you, it took me awhile, maybe you will find a hunting bullet before the buck/bull of your dreams gets away..

I have been running them for years...and was totally drinking the coolaid like most guys that shoot them, bragging about how deadly they were to all my buddies, I did kill a pile of western big game animals from distances of 50 yards to 1100 with not an issue, every chance I could I was saying how awesome they were cause I really thought they were. Defended them when others talked of problems. Well I'm eating crow big time, and I will never hunt with them again....and I'm going to tell you why, sorry it's long but I want to lay it out, not that I had a problem here and there.

For years I ran accubonds, out of just about everything...and they were a great bullet, killed ****..dead...any hit center mass was a dead animal... And shot pretty good I thought. But one day, like ten years ago, my buddy is telling me about these new "burger" bullets (never heard of then before that), and how awesome the coefficientcy was...and they are a hunting bullet, he bought some and loaded them up in a 7mm and I truly about died at the accuracy... He was grouping better than he had ever shot, It peaked my interest...so I bought some.

I started shooting a 180 grain 30 cal, out of my Weatherby 30/378...groups immediately tightened...I then bought some 168's for my wife's 30/06...groups were best I had ever had that gun do without even hardly playing with the load...

Before I knew it, I had loads dialed up for every gun I owned, .243's, 300 RUM, .223 you name it I was shooting bergers! Loved them, accuracy was so important to me.

In the first year we shot antelope, elk, deer, and **** we had good results, even sub par shots....**** died....i was officially drinking the coolaid...

First failure-
A buddy called me a year later and asked if I could help him come try to find a buck the next morning he had just shot, he was shooting a 300 RUM 190 grain VLD I believe....like 200 yards..we went back in to where he had shot and nothing, no blood, not ****...he was convinced he had hit it so we kept at it, 250 yards from where he shot we found him piled up...make no mistake...this thing was shot perfect, mid body, just behind shoulder, .30 cal entrance, .30 cal exit...no expansion, right between ribs....now in all my life, I have never saw such a perfect shot placement with no blood....I wrote it off, as anamoly.

Wyoming Back-to-Back Failures-
I drew a tag in one of my favorite areas about 5 years ago...to this point I had killed probably 10/15 mature mule deer with bergers...a few antelope and elk and been running 180 grain VLD's out of my 300 RUM. I had never had anything take more than probably thirty steps, dead on impact... I ranted and raved continually, so accurate, so deadly.. I had found a buck with a 8" drop club that was sitting on a 185" frame, I spent a pile of money and time on this buck...opening morning I was going to get him....It worked perfect...he came into the same avalanche chute opening morning at 500 yards...it was a slam dunk, I loaded and put one just behind his shoulder and the buck was down immediately...I was in disbelief, could not believe how easy, my buddy and I headed for the horses, why we were crossing canyon we noticed another buck (we thought) headed out bottom of chute... We got over there, buck was gone...blood in small pile, some hair, and about a five foot blood trail that ended up to nothing... I spent days, and days looking for him....never found him.. I had never saw anything like it...

During the search for my deer I saw something that should have been like a slap in the face to me but I couldn't stop my man crush with Berger at the time..I was glassing for birds on a hillside and saw a nice buck get up, I was watching him and two smaller bucks feed in my spotting scope when the big buck got slammed, big kick and away they all ran, I watched the buck tip over after he went through a few small chutes and around a hill... Twenty minutes later I see the guy who shot come up and wonder around for what seemed like forever...It was getting dark and I thought I would go help him and show him where it was...needless to say, no blood... Nothing... Again...I couldn't believe it... But I assumed we had just missed the blood, he was chocking it up for a miss and was heading off mountain, he couldn't believe when I told him he was dead.. The guy was shooting a 7mm, Bergers, imagine that... There was a perfect 7mm entrance and exit hole when we caped him, missed shoulder by inches...truly a great shot and he thought he had missed.... I went back to where he shot it the next day on my way up... No blood... I thought maybe he was shooting target bullets or something and still didn't stop my Berger crush...

Last year-
My buddy and I finally found a buck we had been after, a B&C typical Muley.... We got into position and my buddy drills him. 800 yards, 190 grain 300 RUM. It was low and back... Saw impact in the spotting scope a classic gut shot, next shot looked middle of the body.... Deer went into trees..the canyon we we're glassing across was strait cliffs below us, we decided to give the deer six/seven hours and go recover...when we got to the big dead pine the deer was standing next too I turned sick when we found no blood... I had saw this... We spent forever wandering around...around 1/2 mile away we finally jump him at 100 yards and get lucky as hell to get a shot and kill him. He had hit the buck in the guts, twice... Now I have shot deer in the guts with a bow and saw them die... In the hide there was no expansion, again, no bone, meat... Bergers shot through like a full metal jacket. Buck didn't even act phased.

My wife ends up having to shoot a bull elk 7 times...and he wouldn't go down, 350 yards with 168 grain VLD's, the bull was broadside, in a wide open basin..her first shot was perfect, second was high, third actually knocked him down and from that point I could just tell if he was getting hit or not...the bull soaked them up...running though a small drainage...*** exactly happened I do not know but she finally dumped him on her 7th shot and the bull laid in the brush and bled out after another 15 minutes of kicking and moaning, gargling etc...not an easy way to make sure she continues her excitement about hunting...I had never in my life saw something like that...the craziest part is, and honest to god I don't know how this happens, but after taking seven shots...the bull was not bleeding except the last shot that she put in his neck... These bullets were not working...and I was really getting upset.

This year-
I decided to upsize my bullets, go to a heavier load, little more ft pounds of energy... I went to the 210 grain VLD, running 3100 FPS out of a new 300 RUM i had built over the summer...gun is the best shooting gun I have ever been around, I'm touching rounds at 300 yards. My wife shoots a bull twice, 550 yards, first round the bull fell right over, rolled, we high fived, told her congrats and I look up and the bull is trying to stand...she loads another round and puts him down..this was all minutes before dark... I headed to get sat messenger, to get some help coming and meat packs...she stayed put and waited for me to get back, we get to bull and he is sitting with his head up, still not dead, I was sick...she had to shoot him again, in the dark, at point blank...I was not happy...this **** was starting to get old...bull was hit in shoulder twice with a 210 grain VLD going 3100 FPS...these were perfect shots, the bull was hit with just barely under 3000 foot pounds of energy each shot...I recovered one bullet in the shoulder, the other one had disintegrated.

I end up finding a hell of a buck, and just before dark we find him in an avalanche chute at 600 yards...I shot the new ultra, 210's and get him just behind shoulder...buck ran into pines and I knew he was dead... But I elected to wait til morning, he was huge and I didn't want to have problems finding him or find him wounded in the dark.. I spent three weeks, this is all on film... I know exactly where he was standing and where I hit and I have still not found him. I'm honestly sick... Thousands and thousands of dollars a guy can spend to use ****** bullets..



In conclusion... I am done...I'll be shooting them at competitions, but no more animals...

Thanks for telling your experience.

I sort of saw terminal issues with a 338LM and and a bull. Several years ago my friend hit a bull elk 4 times with the 300 gr. Berger Hybrids 411 yds. but 3 of the 4 were poorly placed shots so I just chalked it up to that but I remember thinking that I was not impressed. Hmmm.....
The last shot went through the heart and it went down. Like I said I just thought it was bad shot placement.

 

[Catahoula]

I could not agree more! The biggest buck I have ever shot at was hit with a 140 Berger at 400 yards. He went right down, then as I walked over to where he fell, he jumped up & ran over a ridge & the coyotes must have enjoyed him. Found a spot of blood about as big as a chew can. Then with a 190 Berger I shot a small cow elk at 125 yards. Very good hit with my 300 win mag. She humped up & laid down. I had to walk over & shoot her in the head. They are accurate but I will never shoot them again. Same with Barnes. I had a train wreck with a black bear a few years ago again with my 300 winny. First shot he should have never got up. Took 2 more shots to anchor him. The game we hunt deserves better than that. I agree with your thoughts on the Accubond. That bullet & a few Sierras are all I need for quick accurate kills.
Thanks, Kirk

 

[BergerBoy]

I could not agree more! The biggest buck I have ever shot at was hit with a 140 Berger at 400 yards. He went right down, then as I walked over to where he fell, he jumped up & ran over a ridge & the coyotes must have enjoyed him. Found a spot of blood about as big as a chew can. Then with a 190 Berger I shot a small cow elk at 125 yards. Very good hit with my 300 win mag. She humped up & laid down. I had to walk over & shoot her in the head. They are accurate but I will never shoot them again. Same with Barnes. I had a train wreck with a black bear a few years ago again with my 300 winny. First shot he should have never got up. Took 2 more shots to anchor him. The game we hunt deserves better than that. I agree with your thoughts on the Accubond. That bullet & a few Sierras are all I need for quick accurate kills.
Thanks, Kirk

I agree with you about Berger bullets but I wonder if there is any inconsistancy in bullet manufacture??? From bullet to bullet? I love Berger, everything but the price but I have been hearing more n more negative things about them. JMO

If you are talking about SMKs for hunting I think there are better bullets out there IMO. I am with you on Nosler AB and BT.

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

Thank you for taking the time to write that up. Very important and useful information even when people dont like to admit it.

My family and I were lucky enough to take 4 elk this year with the 215 berger. What surprised me with all of them, was the exit wounds, all were no bigger then a 50 cent piece.

I was accustomed to hearing from everyone that bergers will give golf ball to grape fruit sized exit wounds.....not the case here. I am happy with the performance from them, but am still a bit skeptical.

 

[BEEMAN]

Thank you for taking the time to write that up. Very important and useful information even when people dont like to admit it.

My family and I were lucky enough to take 4 elk this year with the 215 berger. What surprised me with all of them, was the exit wounds, all were no bigger then a 50 cent piece.

I was accustomed to hearing from everyone that bergers will give golf ball to grape fruit sized exit wounds.....not the case here. I am happy with the performance from them, but am still a bit skeptical.

How far were your shots on these elk? I remember reading Broz's thread and he was not usually getting a exit until the range was fairly far. Also what caliber and impact velocity.