Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

[D.Camilleri]

This is my first year shooting Bergers, as many I have been skeptical, but this year with the 300 gr hybrid, I have to say I am impressed. First hunt for practice was on antelope and my scope got knocked off from banging around too much on my atv. Results were two antelope hit in the hind end due to the poi shifting 8 inches to the right at 100. Both shots were 300+, not pretty, but neither goat went anywhere. I had to switch guns and took another goat at 600 with my 300 rum with 180 accubond, drt. In the past, I had an antelope buck I shot with my 300 rum with a 180 accubond appear to explode on the skin, the bullet however remained in tact and dropped him. I did recover the bullet and it weighed about 50%. I have had very good luck with the 225 gr accubonds out of my 338 rum at 3300. No bullet failures and mostly drt kills. I got the chance this year to take a bull elk at 550 yards in my favorite canyon and I can honestly say I have never seen a bull go down so fast and hard as the berger did. I literally saw his 4 hooves in the air as the recoil moved me off target. There was very little blood shot and the entrance was just behind the shoulder nicking the shoulder blade. I could see where the bullet left a tract through the bone. The bullet did not exit and I saw no evidence of it when I quartered the bull. My last kill with the Berger was on the last day of deer season, my dad was out visiting and said he wanted some venison, so we headed up the mountain to find a meat buck and I killed a small mulie at 620 yards with a spine shot. It blew up about 6 inches of spine with very little blood shot. I guess I need to make a test media to see how the bullet does at 15 yards for hunting in griz country, because they are all around where I elk hunt. So far, I am impressed. I shot a nice bull elk in the same canyon several years ago at 542 with a 250 grain partition and the hit broke the shoulder, caused a lot of muscle damage and the bullet shed what seemed to be all of its frontal area. The remaining shank, penetrated into the boiler room and killed the elk, no exit. I have also killed a bull in the same canyon at 572 with a 225 accubond and it didn't exit either. I can't blame the accubond for poor performance on that kill because I had a new *** barrel that wouldn't hold moa but the accubond imparted enough damage that the bull couldn't move and I eventually dropped him. I also have some 225 Tipped Tripple shocks loaded up that shoot very well, I just haven't taken any game with them yet. When I first bought my 338 rum, I shot 210 grain Barnes xlc's and they were killin machines until my barel developed a crack in one of the lands and then they wouldn't shoot any more. I finished off a cow elk that my brother made a bad hit on at about 550 and I broke both shoulders and we recovered the bullet in the meat of the off side shoulder when we were cutting it up. 3 out of 4 pedals in tact and perfect mushroom.

 

[bullridety]

Here is a picture of a 7mm mag 180gr. VLD .659bc bullet that i shot a cow elk with at 626 yards. THIS IS A HUNTING VLD BULLET (NOT TARGET) THAT CAME OUT OF THE ORANGE BOX. I have never bought a target Berger bullet so there is no question that it is a hunting VLD. The bullet was found under the hide of the elk on the opposite side of the rib cage. This elk had ran off and I was lucky enough to get one more shot to eventually put her down. But my question is why didnt this bullet perform? The riflings on this bullet are very apparent and it doesnt look like this bullet was going to expand no matter what! Could just about reload this bullet again! Shot placement was perfect and 7mm mag at 3,025fps should have done a perfect job! Also in the picture is another Berger bullet (300gr. .818bc 338 Lapua cal) that a friend shot a bear with at 1,152 yards. The bear was not recovered but we knew it was a hit! We went over and found the bullet in the hill side and 1 speck of blood. Another question here is why didnt this bullet expand like it should? I eventually switched to my 243 Ackley Improved 115gr. Berger bullet .545bc at 3,153fps and shot my mule deer buck at 731 yards. Perfect Shot placement and bullet performed how it should. It dropped the deer in his tracks and had excellent blood on the ground. Am I just way over gunned or what? I really am disappointed on the performance of my custom 7mm mag not being able to put down an animal with the 180gr. Berger VLD hunting bullet. These are just a few stories of the bullets we actually recovered. But we do have video footage of animals getting hit and just walking off! Maybe someone can explain or share similar stories. I know there is great talk about Bergers performing, but it seems to only happen sometimes and not ALL the time! I just want feedback of simliar stories!
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[Tumbleweed]

Here is a picture of a 7mm mag 180gr. VLD .659bc bullet that i shot a cow elk with at 626 yards. THIS IS A HUNTING VLD BULLET (NOT TARGET) THAT CAME OUT OF THE ORANGE BOX. I have never bought a target Berger bullet so there is no question that it is a hunting VLD. The bullet was found under the hide of the elk on the opposite side of the rib cage. This elk had ran off and I was lucky enough to get one more shot to eventually put her down. But my question is why didnt this bullet perform? The riflings on this bullet are very apparent and it doesnt look like this bullet was going to expand no matter what! Could just about reload this bullet again! Shot placement was perfect and 7mm mag at 3,025fps should have done a perfect job! Also in the picture is another Berger bullet (300gr. .818bc 338 Lapua cal) that a friend shot a bear with at 1,152 yards. The bear was not recovered but we knew it was a hit! We went over and found the bullet in the hill side and 1 speck of blood. Another question here is why didnt this bullet expand like it should? I eventually switched to my 243 Ackley Improved 115gr. Berger bullet .545bc at 3,153fps and shot my mule deer buck at 731 yards. Perfect Shot placement and bullet performed how it should. It dropped the deer in his tracks and had excellent blood on the ground. Am I just way over gunned or what? I really am disappointed on the performance of my custom 7mm mag not being able to put down an animal with the 180gr. Berger VLD hunting bullet. These are just a few stories of the bullets we actually recovered. But we do have video footage of animals getting hit and just walking off! Maybe someone can explain or share similar stories. I know there is great talk about Bergers performing, but it seems to only happen sometimes and not ALL the time! I just want feedback of simliar stories!
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Is there any chance your 180VLD could have hit brush or tall grass before making contact with the animal? Almost seems the bullet could have been tumbling or hit the elk somewhat sideways?

 

[elkaholic]

Just for info: My friend was shooting his new .280 Sherman this fall and asked me for a recommendation on a long range hunting bullet. I told him he might try the 180 vld. He bought a box and had good accuracy right away at 100 yards. He shot a whitetail at 300 yards in the middle of a field (on video). The shock wave was easy to see and the impact on the deer was 2/3 of the way up the rib cage and approx. 10" behind the shoulder. The deer kicked it's hind feet in the air (like they do) and sprinted off accross 200 yards of field into the brush. They were able to find where the deer entered the brush line and tracked it for a ways but only found a couple drops of blood. They searchd the area for two hours and never found the deer. I know that a lot of people have good success with the Bergers and I have as well, but I have also seen and heard about this happening. A non expanded bullet will tumble nearly everytime and that is obviously what happened in this post when you look at the bent tip and the battered sides. In testing we refer to this as a "banana bullet"!
I have seen this a lot in my bullet testing and have given a lot of thought lately to why some people have such success, and others have this happen. One thing that I know for sure is that a very small meplat needs to have enough of an opening (hollow point) for hydraulic action to occur and expand the bullet unless there is enough resistance and velocity to rip off the tip. Sometimes, depending upon what is hit, this doesn't seem to happen (maybe hair in the tip, etc?)
Here is another possibility for the tumbling, and non expansion:
One of the things that makes a Berger work is the fact that the meplat is small allowing it to penetrate a few inches before it often explodes and causes a great deal of trauma inside the animal. What if the bullet just barely clips the side of a rib, on say a deer, but hits the side of the ogive and not the tip. This might happen with less than two inches of penetration on a deers rib cage. The bullet might then deflect sideways and start to tumble BEFORE expansion is initiated. I know there are credible people on this forum that have seen "and experienced" both including myself. You can decide my personal credibility Anyway, those are a couple of likely possibilities in my view. A bullet, such as an A-Max, which is constructed and shaped much like a Berger, only with a ballistic tip, will not do that which also makes it less effective at higher velocities because it expands Too quickly. It is more predictable, but not necessarily in a good way. FIRE AWAY!.........Rich

 

[barnesuser28]

Just for info: My friend was shooting his new .280 Sherman this fall and asked me for a recommendation on a long range hunting bullet. I told him he might try the 180 vld. He bought a box and had good accuracy right away at 100 yards. He shot a whitetail at 300 yards in the middle of a field (on video). The shock wave was easy to see and the impact on the deer was 2/3 of the way up the rib cage and approx. 10" behind the shoulder. The deer kicked it's hind feet in the air (like they do) and sprinted off accross 200 yards of field into the brush. They were able to find where the deer entered the brush line and tracked it for a ways but only found a couple drops of blood. They searchd the area for two hours and never found the deer. I know that a lot of people have good success with the Bergers and I have as well, but I have also seen and heard about this happening. A non expanded bullet will tumble nearly everytime and that is obviously what happened in this post when you look at the bent tip and the battered sides. In testing we refer to this as a "banana bullet"!
I have seen this a lot in my bullet testing and have given a lot of thought lately to why some people have such success, and others have this happen. One thing that I know for sure is that a very small meplat needs to have enough of an opening (hollow point) for hydraulic action to occur and expand the bullet unless there is enough resistance and velocity to rip off the tip. Sometimes, depending upon what is hit, this doesn't seem to happen (maybe hair in the tip, etc?)
Here is another possibility for the tumbling, and non expansion:
One of the things that makes a Berger work is the fact that the meplat is small allowing it to penetrate a few inches before it often explodes and causes a great deal of trauma inside the animal. What if the bullet just barely clips the side of a rib, on say a deer, but hits the side of the ogive and not the tip. This might happen with less than two inches of penetration on a deers rib cage. The bullet might then deflect sideways and start to tumble BEFORE expansion is initiated. I know there are credible people on this forum that have seen "and experienced" both including myself. You can decide my personal credibility Anyway, those are a couple of likely possibilities in my view. A bullet, such as an A-Max, which is constructed and shaped much like a Berger, only with a ballistic tip, will not do that which also makes it less effective at higher velocities because it expands Too quickly. It is more predictable, but not necessarily in a good way. FIRE AWAY!.........Rich

That is a very good point Rich, not one i have thought of before. And it can happen with any bullet, more so to a light (weight) one, along with light construction if my thinking is correct. Which it usually isnt .

 

[Joe King]

Here is a picture of a 7mm mag 180gr. VLD .659bc bullet that i shot a cow elk with at 626 yards. THIS IS A HUNTING VLD BULLET (NOT TARGET) THAT CAME OUT OF THE ORANGE BOX. I have never bought a target Berger bullet so there is no question that it is a hunting VLD. The bullet was found under the hide of the elk on the opposite side of the rib cage. This elk had ran off and I was lucky enough to get one more shot to eventually put her down. But my question is why didnt this bullet perform? The riflings on this bullet are very apparent and it doesnt look like this bullet was going to expand no matter what! Could just about reload this bullet again! Shot placement was perfect and 7mm mag at 3,025fps should have done a perfect job! Also in the picture is another Berger bullet (300gr. .818bc 338 Lapua cal) that a friend shot a bear with at 1,152 yards. The bear was not recovered but we knew it was a hit! We went over and found the bullet in the hill side and 1 speck of blood. Another question here is why didnt this bullet expand like it should? I eventually switched to my 243 Ackley Improved 115gr. Berger bullet .545bc at 3,153fps and shot my mule deer buck at 731 yards. Perfect Shot placement and bullet performed how it should. It dropped the deer in his tracks and had excellent blood on the ground. Am I just way over gunned or what? I really am disappointed on the performance of my custom 7mm mag not being able to put down an animal with the 180gr. Berger VLD hunting bullet. These are just a few stories of the bullets we actually recovered. But we do have video footage of animals getting hit and just walking off! Maybe someone can explain or share similar stories. I know there is great talk about Bergers performing, but it seems to only happen sometimes and not ALL the time! I just want feedback of simliar stories!
Attached Thumbnails - Click to View Larger

Have you compared the Meplat of a seated bullet to the Meplat of one unseated? Wondering if your seating plug isn't trying to point your bullets.

 

[ovgd]

I hunt more for meat than trophy. It is important for me that a maximum amount of meat is saved for eating. My friend and I went hunting together, and he shot a boar with a Berger bullit. Both shoulders were totally mangled and beyond salvaging. Even part of the tenderloin and part of the back strap were damaged. He was happy he put the boar down. I was sad, since so much meat was lost. I'll have to check and see what Berger bullits were meant to shoot and what they suggest would be the best manner of shooting (long distance vs short, head shot vs heart/lung, etc.).

If anybody can suggest some 30-06 loads for Berger bullets, I would be grateful.

 

[Greyfox]

Being mostly a med game shooter(deer, antelope), I have had outstanding success with game taken with the 140 VLD's in my 6.5-284 for several years. Over a couple of dozen kills with 1-2" exits and major internal damage from 50-1000 yards. Using my 300WM with 210 Berger VLD's , while I have not lost any animals, I have had a lot of shots, particularly with the smaller animals at long range that indicate insufficient expansion at the longer ranges. They do better on the big bodied Canadian Mule deer, and expect they would do very well with elk sized game but I've decided to give the LR Accubonds a try next season for my medium game hunting with the 300WM.

 

[D.Camilleri]

I continue to have excellent results in my 338 rum with the 300 gr OTM. Last fall I killed a nice 6 point bull elk at 750 yards, my longest shot to date. I hit the bull twice with the second shot taking out the lower leg, it didn't matter as the first shot was on the money and he expired after running down 25 yards. I also killed a cow elk in Dec with 475 yard shot that broke her femur. Wind was blowing horribly. Kill shot was in the back of the head at 330. I recovered the femur bullet and it was expanded perfectly. There was a lot of blood shot meat in the ham, but that isn't where we typically want to hit, but things happen. I seem to be having excellent performance from my gun, but I have to wonder if my 9.3 twist isn't helping the expansion a bit.

 

[elkaholic]

I continue to have excellent results in my 338 rum with the 300 gr OTM. Last fall I killed a nice 6 point bull elk at 750 yards, my longest shot to date. I hit the bull twice with the second shot taking out the lower leg, it didn't matter as the first shot was on the money and he expired after running down 25 yards. I also killed a cow elk in Dec with 475 yard shot that broke her femur. Wind was blowing horribly. Kill shot was in the back of the head at 330. I recovered the femur bullet and it was expanded perfectly. There was a lot of blood shot meat in the ham, but that isn't where we typically want to hit, but things happen. I seem to be having excellent performance from my gun, but I have to wonder if my 9.3 twist isn't helping the expansion a bit.

I have had some disagreement over twist influencing expansion, but I am convinced that adding several thousand RPM to an impacting bullet increases damage........rich

 

[Pdvdh]

I use both frangible bullets and controlled expansion bullets. The controlled expansion bullets are used at ranges out to approximately 300-400 yds, or a tad farther. They are carried in the magazine for closer range, short notice encounters with game or beasts. They excel at higher velocity impacts. I will normally solely use controlled expansion bullets for the largest of large game, such as moose, or brown bear. If I had a perfect broadside shot at long range on a moose, then I might use a Berger VLD into the ribs. The controlled expansion bullets help ensure sufficient penetration on less than ideal positioning of these very large game animals, on less than ideal positioning of the animal, in my opinion.

I carry frangible bullets for longer range shots where utmost accuracy and reduced wind drift help ensure optimum bullet placement at distant ranges. In addition, I find there is normally sufficient time to wait for an optimum broadside positioned animal at long range, where the ribs can be targeted to minimize meat damage, and to help ensure the frangible bullet penetrates sufficiently to reach the vitals.

I view this two-bullet approach as a means of taking advantage of the most beneficial features of these two different bullet designs, under field use conditions which capitalize on their strengths, and just as importantly, as a means of avoiding the least desirable performance features of the two different bullet designs under field use conditions likely to result in poor bullet performance.

I began using the 210 gr Berger VLD about 6 seasons ago in the .300 Winchester Magnum. They are accurate bullets with high BC values which help maintain velocity and reduce wind drift - great qualities for long range effectiveness. I experience one VLD shrapnel/grenade at close range (7 yds on a medium sized black bear in alders) exhibiting a wound channel that was wider than it was deep, and I've had one shoot thru the rear portion of the rib cage a dall ram standing broadside at 335 yds with no expansion at all, and little ill effect on the ram. They are a bullet that is more apt to provide on game performance at both extreme ends of the spectrum, from no expansion at all, to explosive shallow depth wound channels, in my fairly limited first-hand experiences, especially compared to the other lead-core jacketed bullets I've used in the prior 35 years. My experience mirrors the experience of many others, based on the multiple user experiences I've read about on this and other Forums.

In addition, I have had a handful of experiences where the Berger 210 VLD performed in their most normal fashion - several inches of penetration and then explosive internal expansion and shrapnel - often with an exit hole on broadside shots on medium sized big game animals. So I understand the excitement and enthusiasm associated with observing the game animal drop in their tracks from a VLD.

In order to help ensure expansion, and in the effort to reduce the likelihood of non-expanding VLDs, I've meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed the tips on my 210 VLDs. This is something Berger advises against doing. I've only shot one big game animal since doing this (caribou hit twice in the ribs at 510 & 530yds), and the VLD expansion began instantly with these meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed bullets (using the Kevin Cram meplat uniforming and hollow-pointing tool). Nevertheless, portions of both bullets exited the far side of the caribou's rib cage. The meplat uniformed and hollow-pointing turns these VLDs into 210 grain varmint bullets - which is fine for long range use. And since I'm a two-bullet hand loader and hunter, I have no intention of using these meplat modified VLDs at close range.

All in all, after 5-6 seasons of using the 210 VLDs, I'll continue to use the meplat uniformed and hollow-pointed versions for long range (>500yd) shots on the mid-sized Alaskan large game animals I hunt. Based on my personal experience, and what I've read and been told by other users, I lack confidence that the unadulterated factory 210 gr .308 VLDs will reliably expand on game shot broadside thru the ribs. If I do use the factory version, it will only be on game animals that I hunt in open country, such as caribou, dall sheep, or mountain goat, in a setting where a second shot can be employed should the first bullet fail to expand. For example, I will not be using the factory 210 VLDs when hunting black bear on the alder-laced mountainsides where I typically hunt spring black bear. In these brushy settings, if the first bullet to strike the bear doesn't expand, there's generally no second opportunity for a shot.

Up to this point, my Post only entails the .308 210gr Berger VLD Hunting bullet fired out of a .300 Winchester Magnum rifle. No other Berger VLD hunting bullet.

My son has shot a couple caribou with the 168gr .284 Berger VLD Hunting bullet over the past several years, which I've observed, with good performance. But for closer range shots at distances of less than 400 yds, I see no reason to chance the additional meat damage experienced with the Berger VLD on any errant shot into the shoulder or the rear hams, compared to the Nosler 160gr Accubond. Last fall I told my son to use the Accubond on a caribou walked up to within 225 yds of our camp. Pretty much a bang flop. Same as a VLD, but with less meat damage and less lead shrapnel in the meat.

 

[beretzs]

Great post, thank you for sharing that. Pretty danged informative and excellent intel. Any thoughts on trying the new ABLR in the 300?